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Pixar in a Box: the art of storytelling
- superbcarrot 6y agoWhat people don't realise about Pixar is how much iteration goes into their stories - they're very comfortable with taking some idea and working on it from different angles until it's good. And there's a process there that can be taught. I think that's contrary to the way some people imagine storytelling - it's almost never the case that some creative person has a brilliant story come out perfect in the first draft. Storytelling requires creativity but it isn't magic. You can also see the lack of this process in so so many films - George Lucas famously drafted out the Star Wars prequels under pressure, no one had the nerve to challenge him and they just ran with the his early drafts every time. Those drafts should have been a starting point, not the end product. And you can say this for many films that come out - there are good ideas somewhere in them, they just had to work on the story a bit more and that's often at odds with studio pressures, release date deadlines etc. This course looks lovely. It's great for KA to have this kind of material and not just calculus tutorials (as much as I personally appreciated the calculus).
- ekianjo 6y ago> they're very comfortable with taking some idea and working on it from different angles until it's good. Except when their stories end up not being very good at all. There's a lot of variability in what they produce, to be honest, so I am not sure if their "process" is a robust as they would like us to believe.
- m4tthumphrey 6y agoI can't think of any original Pixar stories that were "not good at all". Brave is probably the only one I might put close to that category. Which ones would you include? Edit: Added "original"; some of the sequels are not great
- mkl 6y agoI also think most of their originals are good. I thought The Good Dinosaur was awful though, and can't understand how it could have come out of this kind of long process of iterative refinement.
- RobertKerans 6y agoMaybe studio just got caught up in it, lost objectivity? Or they just hit a point of no return and hey, it's a Pixar film, it's not going to lose money even if it's very average, is just a possible hit to reputation. It's just not a great subject or story, but I bet the initial tests they did for it looked fantastic. Everyone loves dinosaurs, right? And story is dead simple to understand (too simple? There's nothing there imo), so probably an easy sell at first. Once committed, past a certain point just need to finish it because sunk cost, can iterate and refine a turd forever and it'll still be a turd.
- rocmcd 6y agoI don't think The Good Dinosaur was a very good "children's movie" in the typical sense, but I'd recommend taking a second look at it if you haven't recently. I watched it again after seeing it when it first came out, and I found it to be a pretty good movie - even if it doesn't fit the typical kids movie mold. It's ironic because The Good Dinosaur would be a good example of them taking a bet on a somewhat unique vision (a dinosaur spaghetti western?) with a more mature outlook, and then getting shit on by reviewers because it wasn't as funny or charming as Inside Out.
- samzer 6y agoI guess it's subjective. I found brave quite decent and there were some moving moments. Worst for me would be Cars 2 and in the context of general films, it's still okay.
- jedimastert 6y ago> Worst for me would be Cars 2 TBH I keep forgetting that movie exists. It was such a weird moment for them.
- kinghtown 6y agoI feel that Pixar’s mastery of storytelling is overrated. Coco was lovely but I find their movies to be needlessly sad and curiously episodic in form. In “UP”, each sequence was very well crafted but they fit together randomly as though each scene was brainstormed by a group. They lack a singular vision in their films, there are no auteurs at Pixar: just art by committee. This isn’t to say that their stories are bad, though they are sometimes lukewarm. Except for the Pixar level of excellence in the visuals and animation, which to be clear are admirable on their own, I feel that their movies lack identity. I wouldn’t want their model to become adopted by everyone. They love and study Miyazaki but don’t seem to trust any one person to direct a film. Everything must be put through a committee. I would very much prefer a CG animation course by them. Or a full overview of their pipeline, asset management, USD implementation. Their technical chops are probably best in the world. Maybe they could do something like release a public version of Presto. Or help out with animation and rigging code with the blender foundation.
- NikolaNovak 6y agoInteresting; I feel it depends on the movie - they have a large portfolio now so some sort of averaging is inevitable. I feel e.g. Cars franchise has limited vision. They're "allright", but not spectacular. I'm OK never seeing any of them again, even the first one. On the other hand, I find Monsters Inc. a unique movie with a unique premise, and I can rewatch it regularly - with or without the kids 0:-). I also don't find it particularly sad. Inside out does indeed have a large dose of melancholy, but again I feel is a unique idea taken quite far without dilution. (there are absolutely movies that are way more avant garde or quirky or surreal or even "creative" inasmuch as that can be objectively compared - but Pixar has two distinct audiences to cater to and they HAVE to be entertaining and attention-occupying to children; while inserting content that also keeps adults interested and even thoughtful - that's a specific set of constraints that e.g. "Love Death + Robots" does not have) And if we look at their entire portfolio, the Pixar Shorts again have some absolutely brilliant, touching, "single idea executed to perfection" entries.
- kinghtown 6y agoAround the time of Wall-E and The Incredibles, I was very much a fan of their work and felt like they could do no wrong. Now I’m not so sure- I did love Coco but they have been absorbed by Disney at this point and are satisfying investors. Also, I find the low key arrogance about having mastered storytelling more than a little obnoxious. You can see a bit of this in Andrew Stanton’s Ted talk. Before they sold to Disney, they were going to start making more mature films alongside their children’s entertainment. I was very curious about Ray Gunn. I think if Disney wanted it then Pixar could definitely make an incredibly compelling animated movie with mature themes. I mostly find myself disappointed with them these days. (I find whenever I bring this up online quite a few people come at me with this idea that they are making mature films, and that the line between children’s entertainment and adult is imaginary, as though most kids could sit through something like The Rules of the Game or Tokyo Story.) But to be clear, I’m still mostly a fan of their work but mostly for their technical mastery.
- onion2k 6y agoPixar does this iteration using a technique called "plussing". When you see someone's work you accept it regardless of whether you think it's good. You're encouraged to do what you can to make your colleagues look good. Work is always a starting point for the next iteration. When you do need to be critical of something you should always add something about how to make it better. There's a good video on YT about it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhXJe8ANws8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhXJe8ANws8
- lostsoul8282 6y agoThis single comment sent me on a hour long search of Randy Nelson and the interesting world of story telling from writters at pixar and disney.
- Taylor_OD 6y agoThis skill, or at least the ability to consider pulsing, is so valuable. A lot of things in life are not good. Even more are just okay. Very few are good and almost none are perfect or great. Having the ability to be in a situation or see something that is just okay and go, "Okay well it's not perfect but that is okay. Can I make it a little better?" is really helpful. It also makes life a lot less frustrating.
- jtr1 6y agoAgreed. I'd almost go so far as to say that it's an essential tool for aggregating intelligence. Sifting for and refining ideas just strikes me as so much more efficient than attacking and defending them.
- bennysonething 6y agoYep, it's pretty much the key to be able to work with people
- NortySpock 6y agoSounds similar to the improv skit mantra of "Yes, and...", where any improvisation ("and then I found the cat on the shelf!") must be accepted and built on. (e.g. "Oh BooBoo, how did you get on the shelf you silly cat?") If an actor instead said "No, the cat wasn't on the shelf, the cat wasn't even in the room" the skit ends awkwardly.
- grawprog 6y ago>it's almost never the case that some creative person has a brilliant story come out perfect in the first draft. I've got a book i ended up getting in a free box of books. It's some fantasy novel. It's probably the worst book i've ever seen in print. Everything from the description on the back to the font choices, sometimes four or five in different sizes on one page, to the actual writing reads like something a child would write. Curious about how such a thing could exist, i looked into it more. Turns out it was a self published book edited by the author's wife. Now this next part is speculation... But you can almost picture his wife trying to edit this thing and the author just being like, nope we'll keep it my way. Like, basic spelling and grammar mistakes, terribly worded sentences, a story that made absolutely no sense. The thing is, getting past it all, there were some good ideas in there and likely, in the hands of a good editor and publisher, it could maybe have been turned into an alright, if still not that great of a book rather than, i'm not actually exaggerating here, literally the worst book i've ever seen. Another example that just kind of popped into my head while writing this, the original drafts of star wars. https://old.reddit.com/r/StarWarsCantina/comments/afvlzk/links_to_every_scanned_star_wars_screenplay_that/ https://old.reddit.com/r/StarWarsCantina/comments/afvlzk/lin... I've read some of them and honestly, they were pretty bad, like scyfy movie bad. Without the team of screenwriters and editors that worked through those drafts, we'd probably have no idea what 'Star Killers' was other than some weird cult scifi b-movie with a dedicated fan base of a few hundred people that get together once a year, get drunk, dress up as their favourite characters and complain about how nobody understands just how great George Lucas and Star Killers is. And then Spaceballs would never have been made and that just woulda sucked a whole lot.
- jerome-jh 6y agoI suppose "art" is meant as "technique" here. Modern large productions are so standardized today it is not an uncommon feeling one is watching the same movie ever end ever. I think the last Pixar movie that was worth is "Up" (OK I have not seen them all). My main grief is that surprise is only obtained with a combination of visual effects, fast rhythm and loud sounds, and no more with the story. Relationships between characters is déjà-vu, so many times a conflicting parent/children relationship, where the parent is reflective but wrong and the child impulsive but right and they end up reconciling and admitting they were both partly right in the end. In "Soul" they play a bit with this pattern although I would hardly call this creativity. And finally many animation movies are also shameless green washing (here thinking of Wolfwalkers). Remember the critical tone of Wall-E?
- mkl 6y agoLà-haut = Up
- jerome-jh 6y agoOK edited :) To summarize my mind, I think the only american animated movie that's worth saving in the last 10 years is Disney's Frozen. It has some harshness, complex character relationships and appeals both to adults and children.
- wegs 6y agoFrozen teaches kids all the wrong lessons. Shirk your responsibilities. Ignore your community. Focus on yourself. "Let it Go" is like an ode to everything I dislike about American culture. It's so very American. Best animated movie I've seen in the past decade was probably Moana, but I can't say I've seen many.
- Closi 6y agoWell, actually the moral of Frozen is the absolute opposite - by shirking her responsibilities the community suffered, and she had to go back and face reality to restore the kingdom. The moral of the story was 'running away is not the answer'. "Let it go" as a song needs to be considered along with it's reprise: Elsa: "I'm such a fool, I can't be free. I can't escape from the storm inside of me... I can't control the curse! Oh I'm afraid I'll only make it worse. There's so much fear - you're not safe here, i.... i.... can't...." It's the same underlying moral story as the Lion King - Simba runs away and starts living the easy life, only for the community he left behind to suffer, and he has to become brave and face his responsibilities. The song "Let it go" is basically just "Hakuna Matata" from a story perspective. Is Hakuna Matata an ode to everything you dislike about American culture too? (Also the underlying story of Frozen is actually Danish)
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- tomthe 6y agoIf you don't have time for the full course, here is a hn-comment [0] that I really, really appreciated and helped me when telling stories to my kids: >Yes. Pixar has a template: >Once upon a time there was ___. >Every day, ___. >One day ___. >Because of that, ___. >Because of that, ___. >Until finally ___. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20408283 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20408283 edit: it may have been another comment from here: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=%22because%20of%20that%22%20%22once%20upon&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- w-m 6y agoIt's not unique to Pixar. Many stories and so many films follow the Hero's journey: a common template of stories that involve a hero who goes on an adventure, is victorious in a decisive crisis, and comes home changed or transformed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero%27s_journey). The character needn't be a hero either, if you consider Dan Harmons story circle technique (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Harmon#"Story_Circle"_technique https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Harmon#"Story_Circle"_tech...): 1. A character is in a zone of comfort or familiarity. 2. They desire something. 3. They enter an unfamiliar situation. 4. They adapt to that situation. 5. They get that which they wanted. 6. They pay a heavy price for it. 7. They return to their familiar situation. 8. They have changed as a result of the journey.
- nickthemagicman 6y agoI watch Always Sunny in Philadelphia and they follow all the steps except step 8. They always return back to their original situation unchanged... many times having caused a lot of problems in the world along the way. Which adds to the humor and myth of the charachters being jerks.
- tbabb 6y agoI think the original source of that formula in relation to Pixar storytelling is from here: https://twitter.com/lawnrocket/status/201018115604230146 https://twitter.com/lawnrocket/status/201018115604230146 (The twitter account of a then-Pixar story artist).
- baxtr 6y agoAh nice. Have been looking for something like for that
- andygcook 6y agoFor anyone looking for a deeper dive into how Pixar iterates on their movies and how highly-functioning creative teams can work in general, Creativity, Inc. by Ed Catmull is a really interesting book. It goes into the history of Pixar and some of the detail of how they work with actual stories from the movies they've made. One of my favorite anecdotes from the book is how they nearly almost lost all the work they did on Toy Story 2 and almost went under. One caveat is that the book doesn't cover the news about John Lasseter's misconduct, so it's not all roses, of course.
- mentos 6y agoGreat book. I read it once 4 years ago and again 2 years ago thinking about reading it a third time. The lessons have been applicable to me in game dev but if you work in any field whatsoever that relies on creating anything I'd recommend reading it.
- JustinGarrison 6y agoCreativity Inc came out in 2014 and John left in 2019. I'm not sure how that would have been covered or relevant to the book.
- andygcook 6y agoRight. Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that the book doesn't cover that scandal (which it couldn't have, as you mentioned) and that the Pixar story isn't all roses.
- wrongdonf 6y agoI have watched every single video in this series. To be honest, it was a disappointment. There are a few cool videos, but most of it is very surface level. You won’t get any deep or thorough insights into what makes good characters, stories etc. I would suggest you pick up some books on story telling and the rest will do itself, if you are a programmer.
- ChrisArchitect 6y ago(2015) from at least five years ago here's some other discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21735895 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21735895