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I was kind of guessing that that might be the future actually, not battery-powered EVs. Simply because of the large installed base (and affordability especially

I was kind of guessing that that might be the future actually, not battery-powered EVs. Simply because of the large installed base (and affordability especially considering the secondary market). And then of course hydrogen for more hight tech vehicles. As for batteries. Who wants to haul hundreds of kilos of hard-to-mine-and-recycle materials with some of the lowest energy densities per mass currently in use?

xiphias2 6y ago
> As for batteries. Who wants to haul hundreds of kilos of hard-to-mine-and-recycle materials with some of the lowest energy densities per mass currently in use? Right now the investors vote for that future, though they may be wrong.
jl6 6y ago
Would the perfect car have an electric engine for everyday driving and a hydrogen tank/generator for backup/range driving?
- speedgoose 6y ago
  You already have that kind of hybrids with ICE engines and they are bad. A lot heavier because of two systems, with a system that is rarely used (unless it's a gaz car with a tiny battery only for the taxes benefits) so it's not very reliable, and more expensive. I will cite Carlos Tavares (CEO of Stellantis, Abarth, Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Citroën, Dodge, DS Automobiles, Fiat, Fiat Professional, Jeep, Lancia, Maserati, Opel, Peugeot, Ram Trucks and Vauxhall Motors.) when he was still working for Renault and talking about hybrids to the government. The guy is not a EV fan, far from it. "Why not opt for the hybrid engine? We think that it can only be a temporary solution because it requires two types of motorisation, thermal and electric, which has an impact on the total cost of the vehicle and ultimately on prices. Two motorisations is one too many." The same argument works for hydrogen.
  - foota 6y ago
    Isn't it strictly better on a non cost basis for now though if you need range and want efficiency?
    - speedgoose 6y ago
      Not really, efficiency of ICE engine or hydrogen are pretty poor. And on long trips you need to take breaks anyway. Today we already have production electric cars that charge at more than 1000km/h for a while. If this number is increased even a bit more and the charging network continue to be developed there is no good reason to put something else in the car. Not to mention it's difficult to find hydrogen everywhere, while electricity is very well developed.
  - kenhwang 6y ago
    I wouldn't put much weight on Stellantis' opinion for car tech. They're the furthest behind in both ICE and EV technology and innovations. So of course they're going to resist regulations for better anything.
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    A lot of people are down on hybrids but they look like a good interim solution to me. We can't make enough batteries to electrify everything right now but we can eliminate a ton of emissions with plugins. If I look at our usage patterns most of the year we are making short journeys, 20 miles or less. Then occasionally we will take the car on holiday. We could easily eliminate the majority of our car's emissions with a plugin hybrid.
    - speedgoose 6y ago
      With the price difference between a PHEV and an EV, you could get a nicer short-range EV for everyday and rent a nicer car for holidays.
      - sergiosgc 6y ago
        Not true, due to tax incentives. I just looked up the difference between my PHEV and the equivalent gas-only version [1]. The PHEV starts at 43k€, the gas one (Cooper S) starts at 40k€. [1] https://www.mini.pt/pt_PT/home/standard-selector/configurador.html https://www.mini.pt/pt_PT/home/standard-selector/configurado...
- pgreenwood 6y ago
  How about an ordinary electric car with a small trailer carrying a fuel generator?
  - _ph_ 6y ago
    That would be a surprisingly reasonable solution for scenarios where you couldn't recharge at your destination. A generator always runs at peak efficiency, which is easily twice of the average efficiency of a plain ICE car, so even after the losses at charging the electric car wouldn't be much worse than the ICE car. And you would use it when there are no alternatives. If you go on a longer camping trip, you should just pack a bunch of solar cells :)
- _ph_ 6y ago
  We are at a point where it becomes less and less relevant. There are electric cars with 600 to 800 km range already which recharge very quickly. And the development isn't going to stop any time soon. Why even consider a complex hybrid solution, when you can just get a bigger and faster charging battery? We are already at a point where you can recharge an electric car faster than the driver needs for finishing food and coffee :)
  - Hamuko 6y ago
    >There are electric cars with 600 to 800 km range In the very high price ranges.
    - _ph_ 6y ago
      A Model 3 can reach the 600km range, and that is certainly cheaper than hydrogen cars. And the price is constantly going down.
      - Hamuko 6y ago
        Model 3 that can reach 580 km costs about 2.5 Volkswagen Golfs.
        _ph_ 6y ago
        Yes, if you look at the very basic Golf. Which is a different car. There is also the ID.3 as an electric counterpart, but that might not get quite 600km of range. But prices are coming down. So yes, if you really need 600km range and beyond right now and a Model 3 is too expensive for you, electric isn't a solution, get an ICE car. Though you have to watch the running costs so the TCO doesn't exceed the one of an electric car. Certainly they will, if you buy synthetic fuels.
        Hamuko 6y ago
        The cheapest ID.3 is about 1.4 Volkswagen Golfs and gets 350 km of range. For 540 km, you need to pay 2.0 Volkswagen Golfs.
- azernik 6y ago
  We already have those (with a gasoline back-up) - they're called plug-in hybrids.
Andys 6y ago
People who want to go 0-60mph in 2 seconds, apparently.
_ph_ 6y ago
Batteries doen't have hundreds of kilos of hard-to-mine materials. And most of them are recyclable. Lithium isn't hard to mine and there are less than 10kg of lithium in an electric car. The only somewhat rare metal is cobalt, but Tesla is about to switch to cobalt-free chemistries. The rest is just plain steel, aluminum and carbon in various forms. And note, that hydrogen cars are not lighter than electric cars, so they don't save any resources, not counting for the additional energy required due to the lower efficiencies of the hydrogen production chain.
- Hypx 6y ago
  You still have nickel and manganese. Plus secondary metals like copper and tin for the electronics. You should google the Riversimple Rasa. Hydrogen cars can be made far lighter than EVs.
  - _ph_ 6y ago
    Compare the Toyota Mirai to the Tesla Model 3. These are comparable cars. The Mirai is more expensive and heavier than the Model 3.
    - Hypx 6y ago
      The Mirai is a much larger car than the Model 3.
      - _ph_ 6y ago
        It doesn't offer more interior space nor can it keep up with the driving performance of the Model 3. That is the problem with hydrogen: you need physically large tanks which also need to be at least cylindrical, so you cannot optimize their shape.
        Hypx 6y ago
        The tanks are physically smaller than batteries. The limitation is with packaging, not the technology itself. Future fuel cell cars with just have multiple small tanks instead of a few big ones.
Hypx 6y ago
There now exists hydrogen burning internal combustion engines. It raises the question of how important is the need for a liquid hydrocarbon fuel.

xiphias2 6y ago

> As for batteries. Who wants to haul hundreds of kilos of hard-to-mine-and-recycle materials with some of the lowest energy densities per mass currently in use? Right now the investors vote for that future, though they may be wrong.

jl6 6y ago

Would the perfect car have an electric engine for everyday driving and a hydrogen tank/generator for backup/range driving?

speedgoose 6y ago
You already have that kind of hybrids with ICE engines and they are bad. A lot heavier because of two systems, with a system that is rarely used (unless it's a gaz car with a tiny battery only for the taxes benefits) so it's not very reliable, and more expensive. I will cite Carlos Tavares (CEO of Stellantis, Abarth, Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Citroën, Dodge, DS Automobiles, Fiat, Fiat Professional, Jeep, Lancia, Maserati, Opel, Peugeot, Ram Trucks and Vauxhall Motors.) when he was still working for Renault and talking about hybrids to the government. The guy is not a EV fan, far from it. "Why not opt for the hybrid engine? We think that it can only be a temporary solution because it requires two types of motorisation, thermal and electric, which has an impact on the total cost of the vehicle and ultimately on prices. Two motorisations is one too many." The same argument works for hydrogen.
- foota 6y ago
  Isn't it strictly better on a non cost basis for now though if you need range and want efficiency?
  - speedgoose 6y ago
    Not really, efficiency of ICE engine or hydrogen are pretty poor. And on long trips you need to take breaks anyway. Today we already have production electric cars that charge at more than 1000km/h for a while. If this number is increased even a bit more and the charging network continue to be developed there is no good reason to put something else in the car. Not to mention it's difficult to find hydrogen everywhere, while electricity is very well developed.
- kenhwang 6y ago
  I wouldn't put much weight on Stellantis' opinion for car tech. They're the furthest behind in both ICE and EV technology and innovations. So of course they're going to resist regulations for better anything.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  A lot of people are down on hybrids but they look like a good interim solution to me. We can't make enough batteries to electrify everything right now but we can eliminate a ton of emissions with plugins. If I look at our usage patterns most of the year we are making short journeys, 20 miles or less. Then occasionally we will take the car on holiday. We could easily eliminate the majority of our car's emissions with a plugin hybrid.
  - speedgoose 6y ago
    With the price difference between a PHEV and an EV, you could get a nicer short-range EV for everyday and rent a nicer car for holidays.
    - sergiosgc 6y ago
      Not true, due to tax incentives. I just looked up the difference between my PHEV and the equivalent gas-only version [1]. The PHEV starts at 43k€, the gas one (Cooper S) starts at 40k€. [1] https://www.mini.pt/pt_PT/home/standard-selector/configurador.html https://www.mini.pt/pt_PT/home/standard-selector/configurado...
pgreenwood 6y ago
How about an ordinary electric car with a small trailer carrying a fuel generator?
- _ph_ 6y ago
  That would be a surprisingly reasonable solution for scenarios where you couldn't recharge at your destination. A generator always runs at peak efficiency, which is easily twice of the average efficiency of a plain ICE car, so even after the losses at charging the electric car wouldn't be much worse than the ICE car. And you would use it when there are no alternatives. If you go on a longer camping trip, you should just pack a bunch of solar cells :)
_ph_ 6y ago
We are at a point where it becomes less and less relevant. There are electric cars with 600 to 800 km range already which recharge very quickly. And the development isn't going to stop any time soon. Why even consider a complex hybrid solution, when you can just get a bigger and faster charging battery? We are already at a point where you can recharge an electric car faster than the driver needs for finishing food and coffee :)
- Hamuko 6y ago
  >There are electric cars with 600 to 800 km range In the very high price ranges.
  - _ph_ 6y ago
    A Model 3 can reach the 600km range, and that is certainly cheaper than hydrogen cars. And the price is constantly going down.
    - Hamuko 6y ago
      Model 3 that can reach 580 km costs about 2.5 Volkswagen Golfs.
      - _ph_ 6y ago
        Yes, if you look at the very basic Golf. Which is a different car. There is also the ID.3 as an electric counterpart, but that might not get quite 600km of range. But prices are coming down. So yes, if you really need 600km range and beyond right now and a Model 3 is too expensive for you, electric isn't a solution, get an ICE car. Though you have to watch the running costs so the TCO doesn't exceed the one of an electric car. Certainly they will, if you buy synthetic fuels.
        Hamuko 6y ago
        The cheapest ID.3 is about 1.4 Volkswagen Golfs and gets 350 km of range. For 540 km, you need to pay 2.0 Volkswagen Golfs.
azernik 6y ago
We already have those (with a gasoline back-up) - they're called plug-in hybrids.

Andys 6y ago

People who want to go 0-60mph in 2 seconds, apparently.

_ph_ 6y ago

Batteries doen't have hundreds of kilos of hard-to-mine materials. And most of them are recyclable. Lithium isn't hard to mine and there are less than 10kg of lithium in an electric car. The only somewhat rare metal is cobalt, but Tesla is about to switch to cobalt-free chemistries. The rest is just plain steel, aluminum and carbon in various forms. And note, that hydrogen cars are not lighter than electric cars, so they don't save any resources, not counting for the additional energy required due to the lower efficiencies of the hydrogen production chain.

Hypx 6y ago
You still have nickel and manganese. Plus secondary metals like copper and tin for the electronics. You should google the Riversimple Rasa. Hydrogen cars can be made far lighter than EVs.
- _ph_ 6y ago
  Compare the Toyota Mirai to the Tesla Model 3. These are comparable cars. The Mirai is more expensive and heavier than the Model 3.
  - Hypx 6y ago
    The Mirai is a much larger car than the Model 3.
    - _ph_ 6y ago
      It doesn't offer more interior space nor can it keep up with the driving performance of the Model 3. That is the problem with hydrogen: you need physically large tanks which also need to be at least cylindrical, so you cannot optimize their shape.
      - Hypx 6y ago
        The tanks are physically smaller than batteries. The limitation is with packaging, not the technology itself. Future fuel cell cars with just have multiple small tanks instead of a few big ones.

Hypx 6y ago

There now exists hydrogen burning internal combustion engines. It raises the question of how important is the need for a liquid hydrocarbon fuel.