5 ms·

"The OPA man, Anderson Dawes, was sitting on a cloth folding chair outside Miller’s hole, reading a book. It was a real book—onionskin pages bound in what might

"The OPA man, Anderson Dawes, was sitting on a cloth folding chair outside Miller’s hole, reading a book. It was a real book—onionskin pages bound in what might have been actual leather. Miller had seen pictures of them before; the idea of that much weight for a single megabyte of data struck him as decadent." - Leviathan Wakes, James S. A. Corey

forgotmypw17 6y ago
Great quote, thanks for posting it. Books are not just decadent, they're also a reliable store of information which cannot be erased or altered easily without our knowledge. There's immense and irreplaceable value in paper books, and I've taken to collecting the best ones. I just don't think there's much value in this particular one.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  Narp, I mean some will probably end up as collector's items in a hundred years, as a glance into 2021 design trends - 100 year old advertisements and catalogs are great collectibles and time capsules nowadays - but at the moment they're more of a nice to have for the next year or so. I do like leafing through things like that sometimes, but at the same time I don't mind going to the physical store for a browse. More useful.
- ngngngng 6y ago
  As it relates, the only reason I could find that quote to reply to you was because I have the book in digital format. I remembered the word leather, and "leather" only appears in Leviathan Wakes 8 times, making it easy to find. I love paper books as well, but I think the authors have prophetically captured the inevitable. Cutting down forests to only add tangibility to our bytes just isn't worth it.
  - vidarh 6y ago
    The quote is particularly relevant when discussing space though. It's specifically the weight to data ratio that's called out as decadent. Something that's more relevant if you're used to travel with severe constraints on weight much more often than we are. I agree that it's inevitable that things move that way - my only paper books in recent years have been to complete my collection of Ian Banks because that particular edition looks gorgeous, and Stålenhag's art books. I don't anticipate buying more paper copies of novels or textbooks unless there are books I can't find in digital version. But at the same time, I just published a scifi novel and was surprised at how large a proportion of sales are still made up by paperback (not exactly selling millions, so it's not exactly a large sample of the market). It seems like it will take a long time before paper books become unusual to the point of being considered decadent.
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    Plenty of existing books to be found without having to source new ones. Many, many books are being discarded these days, so I don't have to buy new, or buy at all.
    - 52-6F-62 6y ago
      Many towns' library systems do giveaways as well. My old hometown's system used to do a semi-regular culling at the yearly mini arts & crafts fest in the park. They'd lay out 5 long rows of tables and cover them in old books that had to be retired. You could take as much as you could carry for a donation of any size. I used to go when I was in my teens and had two dollars to rub together, and I still go back now in my 30's if I'm in town (with more of a donation). I've found some real gems.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  Most paper books don't last. Paperbacks are printed on cheap acidic paper that yellows and eventually starts to crumble. The glue in the spine dries and cracks. Hardbacks are more likely to last, and premium heirloom hardbacks = special print runs with special materials and extra assembly effort - are most likely to survive. But for what? Most heirloom hardbacks are better-than-average novels for well-heeled fans and collectors, not a complete guide to rebuilding civilisation. I'd be all for an apocalypse-beating Self-Study Handbook of The Important Stuff We Worked Out and Did, but good luck finding a publisher to fund what would be a massive project.
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    Some of the most valuable books have more to do with the inner world than the outer. Other than binding, which can be re-done pretty easily, paperbacks are readable after 50-100 years. The paper may yellow, but crumbling takes a bit longer.
    - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
      You may have been unusually lucky. I barely dare open some of the paperbacks I bought in the 70s and 80s. Although I have PDFs of all of them, so it doesn't matter. The fact that I can change the font size to make them legible now does, to me at least. The hardbacks are still fine. (Except for the print size.)
  - timgl 6y ago
    You're in luck, someone already has [0] [0] "The Knowledge" by Lewis Dartnell
  - kwhitefoot 6y ago
    I have several paperbacks that are getting close to their centenary. They are getting slightly fragile but that is a long way from saying that the content is unusable. And I have several books published in the nineteen thirties and forties that would serve well to reboot civilization having comprehensive instructions for building all sorts of necessary machinery, buildings, clothes, etc. There were many such books with titles such as "Everything Within" and "The Handyman's Complete Self-Instructor". There is no need for a publisher to fund a massive project; most of what is needed is already available on paper and increasing amounts of it have been scanned so that anyone with a laser printer can make their own permanent copy. Of course those 1930s and 40s books won't tell you how to build a modern computer but they do tell you how to build a radio without needing to build a chip fab first. And it seems that there is sufficient interest (presumably as conversation pieces) for some such books to be republished: https://bookshop.org/books/the-handyman-s-complete-self-instructor/9781409724582 https://bookshop.org/books/the-handyman-s-complete-self-inst...
- yardie 6y ago
  We assume books are permanent because we've always had them. But in medieval times books weren't permanent. We only have the knowledge that we do now because monasteries had a dedicated team of monks who constantly copied and rewrote books onto new parchment.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    True, good modern paper of the types those monk used lasts about 500 years or so in the typical case. (meaning no fire-flood, both of which were common; and not in a carefully climate controlled area which can add thousands of years). We haven't really improved on paper since then. There is a lot of cheap paper that will fall apart in less than 100 years, but those monks didn't use that. What digital storage do you have that will last that long? A few CDs would in the ideal case (but most are not that grade). I'm not clear how long SSDs will last. Magnetic tape becomes brittle and single read in about 30 years as we know from history. The only advantage of digital is IF you care at all it is easy/cheap to copy to something new.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    It only seems like we’ve always had them because most people want books from this century. The further back you go the harder it is to find any type of book, even mass produced dime novels, because a lot of them have rotted away. If you actually want books to last a long time, they must be stored under controlled conditions by an actual archivist.
- heavenlyblue 6y ago
  Books (especially used ones) are also generally cheaper than digital copies.
dsego 6y ago
Well, we're likely one strong magnetic pulse away from having only paper books as a source of information, so there is that.
- onion2k 6y ago
  Electromagnetic pulses can't wipe CDs or DVDs, so we'd definitely still have anything stored on those, and most data centres are designed with EM shielding so we could still have data stored in the cloud unless it was a massive pulse. I think we'd be OK.
  - Retric 6y ago
    CD’s and DVD’s require players which are susceptible to EM pulses. It seems extremely unlikely for that kind of global EM pulse to happen, but I can’t exactly say it’s impossible.
    - ryder9 6y ago
      fires destroy books, and there are more fires than EMPs more fires have destroyed entire libraries than EMPs have destroyed storage or digital storage reading devices
    - dividedbyzero 6y ago
      I'm no EM-pulsicist, but I believe an EM pulse capable of inducing destructive currents in conductors as relatively short as those you'd find in an (unplugged) CD/DVD player, and doing that all over the globe, such a pulse would have to be ridiculously, absurdly massive. Are there any events or things we know about that could do this without also, say, sterilizing the planet?
      - depressedpanda 6y ago
        Coronal mass ejections can cause geomagnetic storms that will mess with electronics globally. It happened back in 1859, but it's effects were limited as the only susceptible tech was telegraph systems. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event
alvarlagerlof 6y ago
I've been watching the series and haven't heard that quote. Might just have to read the books now.
- ngngngng 6y ago
  I started with the series as well, after the previous season ended I became desperate to continue the story so I started reading them. They did such a good job with the series but the books were so good already.

forgotmypw17 6y ago

Great quote, thanks for posting it. Books are not just decadent, they're also a reliable store of information which cannot be erased or altered easily without our knowledge. There's immense and irreplaceable value in paper books, and I've taken to collecting the best ones. I just don't think there's much value in this particular one.

Cthulhu_ 6y ago
Narp, I mean some will probably end up as collector's items in a hundred years, as a glance into 2021 design trends - 100 year old advertisements and catalogs are great collectibles and time capsules nowadays - but at the moment they're more of a nice to have for the next year or so. I do like leafing through things like that sometimes, but at the same time I don't mind going to the physical store for a browse. More useful.
ngngngng 6y ago
As it relates, the only reason I could find that quote to reply to you was because I have the book in digital format. I remembered the word leather, and "leather" only appears in Leviathan Wakes 8 times, making it easy to find. I love paper books as well, but I think the authors have prophetically captured the inevitable. Cutting down forests to only add tangibility to our bytes just isn't worth it.
- vidarh 6y ago
  The quote is particularly relevant when discussing space though. It's specifically the weight to data ratio that's called out as decadent. Something that's more relevant if you're used to travel with severe constraints on weight much more often than we are. I agree that it's inevitable that things move that way - my only paper books in recent years have been to complete my collection of Ian Banks because that particular edition looks gorgeous, and Stålenhag's art books. I don't anticipate buying more paper copies of novels or textbooks unless there are books I can't find in digital version. But at the same time, I just published a scifi novel and was surprised at how large a proportion of sales are still made up by paperback (not exactly selling millions, so it's not exactly a large sample of the market). It seems like it will take a long time before paper books become unusual to the point of being considered decadent.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  Plenty of existing books to be found without having to source new ones. Many, many books are being discarded these days, so I don't have to buy new, or buy at all.
  - 52-6F-62 6y ago
    Many towns' library systems do giveaways as well. My old hometown's system used to do a semi-regular culling at the yearly mini arts & crafts fest in the park. They'd lay out 5 long rows of tables and cover them in old books that had to be retired. You could take as much as you could carry for a donation of any size. I used to go when I was in my teens and had two dollars to rub together, and I still go back now in my 30's if I'm in town (with more of a donation). I've found some real gems.
TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
Most paper books don't last. Paperbacks are printed on cheap acidic paper that yellows and eventually starts to crumble. The glue in the spine dries and cracks. Hardbacks are more likely to last, and premium heirloom hardbacks = special print runs with special materials and extra assembly effort - are most likely to survive. But for what? Most heirloom hardbacks are better-than-average novels for well-heeled fans and collectors, not a complete guide to rebuilding civilisation. I'd be all for an apocalypse-beating Self-Study Handbook of The Important Stuff We Worked Out and Did, but good luck finding a publisher to fund what would be a massive project.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  Some of the most valuable books have more to do with the inner world than the outer. Other than binding, which can be re-done pretty easily, paperbacks are readable after 50-100 years. The paper may yellow, but crumbling takes a bit longer.
  - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
    You may have been unusually lucky. I barely dare open some of the paperbacks I bought in the 70s and 80s. Although I have PDFs of all of them, so it doesn't matter. The fact that I can change the font size to make them legible now does, to me at least. The hardbacks are still fine. (Except for the print size.)
- timgl 6y ago
  You're in luck, someone already has [0] [0] "The Knowledge" by Lewis Dartnell
- kwhitefoot 6y ago
  I have several paperbacks that are getting close to their centenary. They are getting slightly fragile but that is a long way from saying that the content is unusable. And I have several books published in the nineteen thirties and forties that would serve well to reboot civilization having comprehensive instructions for building all sorts of necessary machinery, buildings, clothes, etc. There were many such books with titles such as "Everything Within" and "The Handyman's Complete Self-Instructor". There is no need for a publisher to fund a massive project; most of what is needed is already available on paper and increasing amounts of it have been scanned so that anyone with a laser printer can make their own permanent copy. Of course those 1930s and 40s books won't tell you how to build a modern computer but they do tell you how to build a radio without needing to build a chip fab first. And it seems that there is sufficient interest (presumably as conversation pieces) for some such books to be republished: https://bookshop.org/books/the-handyman-s-complete-self-instructor/9781409724582 https://bookshop.org/books/the-handyman-s-complete-self-inst...
yardie 6y ago
We assume books are permanent because we've always had them. But in medieval times books weren't permanent. We only have the knowledge that we do now because monasteries had a dedicated team of monks who constantly copied and rewrote books onto new parchment.
- bluGill 6y ago
  True, good modern paper of the types those monk used lasts about 500 years or so in the typical case. (meaning no fire-flood, both of which were common; and not in a carefully climate controlled area which can add thousands of years). We haven't really improved on paper since then. There is a lot of cheap paper that will fall apart in less than 100 years, but those monks didn't use that. What digital storage do you have that will last that long? A few CDs would in the ideal case (but most are not that grade). I'm not clear how long SSDs will last. Magnetic tape becomes brittle and single read in about 30 years as we know from history. The only advantage of digital is IF you care at all it is easy/cheap to copy to something new.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  It only seems like we’ve always had them because most people want books from this century. The further back you go the harder it is to find any type of book, even mass produced dime novels, because a lot of them have rotted away. If you actually want books to last a long time, they must be stored under controlled conditions by an actual archivist.
heavenlyblue 6y ago
Books (especially used ones) are also generally cheaper than digital copies.

dsego 6y ago

Well, we're likely one strong magnetic pulse away from having only paper books as a source of information, so there is that.

onion2k 6y ago
Electromagnetic pulses can't wipe CDs or DVDs, so we'd definitely still have anything stored on those, and most data centres are designed with EM shielding so we could still have data stored in the cloud unless it was a massive pulse. I think we'd be OK.
- Retric 6y ago
  CD’s and DVD’s require players which are susceptible to EM pulses. It seems extremely unlikely for that kind of global EM pulse to happen, but I can’t exactly say it’s impossible.
  - ryder9 6y ago
    fires destroy books, and there are more fires than EMPs more fires have destroyed entire libraries than EMPs have destroyed storage or digital storage reading devices
  - dividedbyzero 6y ago
    I'm no EM-pulsicist, but I believe an EM pulse capable of inducing destructive currents in conductors as relatively short as those you'd find in an (unplugged) CD/DVD player, and doing that all over the globe, such a pulse would have to be ridiculously, absurdly massive. Are there any events or things we know about that could do this without also, say, sterilizing the planet?
    - depressedpanda 6y ago
      Coronal mass ejections can cause geomagnetic storms that will mess with electronics globally. It happened back in 1859, but it's effects were limited as the only susceptible tech was telegraph systems. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event

alvarlagerlof 6y ago

I've been watching the series and haven't heard that quote. Might just have to read the books now.

ngngngng 6y ago
I started with the series as well, after the previous season ended I became desperate to continue the story so I started reading them. They did such a good job with the series but the books were so good already.