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Porsche to begin producing synthetic fuels in 2022
- beyondcompute 6y agoI was kind of guessing that that might be the future actually, not battery-powered EVs. Simply because of the large installed base (and affordability especially considering the secondary market). And then of course hydrogen for more hight tech vehicles. As for batteries. Who wants to haul hundreds of kilos of hard-to-mine-and-recycle materials with some of the lowest energy densities per mass currently in use?
- xiphias2 6y ago> As for batteries. Who wants to haul hundreds of kilos of hard-to-mine-and-recycle materials with some of the lowest energy densities per mass currently in use? Right now the investors vote for that future, though they may be wrong.
- jl6 6y agoWould the perfect car have an electric engine for everyday driving and a hydrogen tank/generator for backup/range driving?
- speedgoose 6y agoYou already have that kind of hybrids with ICE engines and they are bad. A lot heavier because of two systems, with a system that is rarely used (unless it's a gaz car with a tiny battery only for the taxes benefits) so it's not very reliable, and more expensive. I will cite Carlos Tavares (CEO of Stellantis, Abarth, Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Citroën, Dodge, DS Automobiles, Fiat, Fiat Professional, Jeep, Lancia, Maserati, Opel, Peugeot, Ram Trucks and Vauxhall Motors.) when he was still working for Renault and talking about hybrids to the government. The guy is not a EV fan, far from it. "Why not opt for the hybrid engine? We think that it can only be a temporary solution because it requires two types of motorisation, thermal and electric, which has an impact on the total cost of the vehicle and ultimately on prices. Two motorisations is one too many." The same argument works for hydrogen.
- foota 6y agoIsn't it strictly better on a non cost basis for now though if you need range and want efficiency?
- speedgoose 6y agoNot really, efficiency of ICE engine or hydrogen are pretty poor. And on long trips you need to take breaks anyway. Today we already have production electric cars that charge at more than 1000km/h for a while. If this number is increased even a bit more and the charging network continue to be developed there is no good reason to put something else in the car. Not to mention it's difficult to find hydrogen everywhere, while electricity is very well developed.
- kenhwang 6y agoI wouldn't put much weight on Stellantis' opinion for car tech. They're the furthest behind in both ICE and EV technology and innovations. So of course they're going to resist regulations for better anything.
- tonyedgecombe 6y agoA lot of people are down on hybrids but they look like a good interim solution to me. We can't make enough batteries to electrify everything right now but we can eliminate a ton of emissions with plugins. If I look at our usage patterns most of the year we are making short journeys, 20 miles or less. Then occasionally we will take the car on holiday. We could easily eliminate the majority of our car's emissions with a plugin hybrid.
- speedgoose 6y agoWith the price difference between a PHEV and an EV, you could get a nicer short-range EV for everyday and rent a nicer car for holidays.
- sergiosgc 6y agoNot true, due to tax incentives. I just looked up the difference between my PHEV and the equivalent gas-only version [1]. The PHEV starts at 43k€, the gas one (Cooper S) starts at 40k€. [1] https://www.mini.pt/pt_PT/home/standard-selector/configurador.html https://www.mini.pt/pt_PT/home/standard-selector/configurado...
- pgreenwood 6y agoHow about an ordinary electric car with a small trailer carrying a fuel generator?
- _ph_ 6y agoThat would be a surprisingly reasonable solution for scenarios where you couldn't recharge at your destination. A generator always runs at peak efficiency, which is easily twice of the average efficiency of a plain ICE car, so even after the losses at charging the electric car wouldn't be much worse than the ICE car. And you would use it when there are no alternatives. If you go on a longer camping trip, you should just pack a bunch of solar cells :)
- _ph_ 6y agoWe are at a point where it becomes less and less relevant. There are electric cars with 600 to 800 km range already which recharge very quickly. And the development isn't going to stop any time soon. Why even consider a complex hybrid solution, when you can just get a bigger and faster charging battery? We are already at a point where you can recharge an electric car faster than the driver needs for finishing food and coffee :)
- Hamuko 6y ago>There are electric cars with 600 to 800 km range In the very high price ranges.
- _ph_ 6y agoA Model 3 can reach the 600km range, and that is certainly cheaper than hydrogen cars. And the price is constantly going down.
- Hamuko 6y agoModel 3 that can reach 580 km costs about 2.5 Volkswagen Golfs.
- _ph_ 6y agoYes, if you look at the very basic Golf. Which is a different car. There is also the ID.3 as an electric counterpart, but that might not get quite 600km of range. But prices are coming down. So yes, if you really need 600km range and beyond right now and a Model 3 is too expensive for you, electric isn't a solution, get an ICE car. Though you have to watch the running costs so the TCO doesn't exceed the one of an electric car. Certainly they will, if you buy synthetic fuels.
- Hamuko 6y agoThe cheapest ID.3 is about 1.4 Volkswagen Golfs and gets 350 km of range. For 540 km, you need to pay 2.0 Volkswagen Golfs.
- azernik 6y agoWe already have those (with a gasoline back-up) - they're called plug-in hybrids.
- Andys 6y agoPeople who want to go 0-60mph in 2 seconds, apparently.
- _ph_ 6y agoBatteries doen't have hundreds of kilos of hard-to-mine materials. And most of them are recyclable. Lithium isn't hard to mine and there are less than 10kg of lithium in an electric car. The only somewhat rare metal is cobalt, but Tesla is about to switch to cobalt-free chemistries. The rest is just plain steel, aluminum and carbon in various forms. And note, that hydrogen cars are not lighter than electric cars, so they don't save any resources, not counting for the additional energy required due to the lower efficiencies of the hydrogen production chain.
- Hypx 6y agoYou still have nickel and manganese. Plus secondary metals like copper and tin for the electronics. You should google the Riversimple Rasa. Hydrogen cars can be made far lighter than EVs.
- _ph_ 6y agoCompare the Toyota Mirai to the Tesla Model 3. These are comparable cars. The Mirai is more expensive and heavier than the Model 3.
- Hypx 6y agoThe Mirai is a much larger car than the Model 3.
- _ph_ 6y agoIt doesn't offer more interior space nor can it keep up with the driving performance of the Model 3. That is the problem with hydrogen: you need physically large tanks which also need to be at least cylindrical, so you cannot optimize their shape.
- Hypx 6y agoThe tanks are physically smaller than batteries. The limitation is with packaging, not the technology itself. Future fuel cell cars with just have multiple small tanks instead of a few big ones.
- Hypx 6y agoThere now exists hydrogen burning internal combustion engines. It raises the question of how important is the need for a liquid hydrocarbon fuel.
- speedgoose 6y agoIt could make sense when energy density and weight is critical, such as long range planes or some racing cars series. However I would be curious to read about the efficiency of the whole system. From the energy input at the factory to the energy output of the ICE engine, without forgetting transport and storage which fuel people love to forget about. I really doubt they are any close to a modern EV.
- prennert 6y ago"At full scale, we expect a reduction in the CO2 impact of around 85%. If you consider well-to-wheel, where we have to transport fuel, we have a global supply chain, everything around that - you have efficiency across the whole process. In a well-to-wheel consideration, it is on the same level as an electric car."
- speedgoose 6y agoYes I read that sentence and I would love to see the actual numbers. They may talk about the CO2 only too.
- rtpg 6y agoWait so they're claiming that, today (or roughly today), we could basically do everything through synthetic fuel (Not requiring much, if any, retooling of existing infrastructure) and basically have major CO2 reductions? This seems like a major no brainer? Especially if you start getting into "places with a bunch of sunlight but no natural petroleum can now turn into energy magnates"? This seems like an extremely powerful idea
- konschubert 6y agoIt is, but it's not cost-competitive right now. "E-fuel" is still much more expensive to produce than fossil fuel.
- rtpg 6y ago........oh, duh. Right. Yes. Does anyone know the current relative prices here (or any research on theoretical price limits given enough scale?) Is it possible that in our lifetimes we could see something similar to the major drops in other renewables? EDIT: From an EU report: "E-fuel costs are currently relatively high (up to 7 euros/litre) but are expected to decrease over time due to economies of scale, learning effects and an anticipated reduction in the renewable electricity price;this is expected to lead to a cost of 1–3 euros/litre (without taxes) in 2050.3The cost of e-fuels could therefore be 1–3 times higher than the cost of fossil fuels by 2050." 7 euros/litre is _very costly_, and the reduction of price is predicated on some massive drops in solar pricing which seam unreasonable. OTOH fuel is important and if there's less of it it'll be more costly! (https://www.concawe.eu/wp-content/uploads/E-fuels-article.pdf https://www.concawe.eu/wp-content/uploads/E-fuels-article.pd...)
- GavinAnderegg 6y agoSynthetic fuels will likely always be more expensive than traditional fuel has been. It’s also not going to be “greener” than other ways to power a car. However, there will also likely always be a market for it from car collectors and enthusiasts. It makes sense the Porsche would be producing this even if it isn’t a cheap, green energy source. It wouldn’t surprise me if this sort of fuel is sold at the Nürburgring in 5-10 years.
- azernik 6y agoI think the more important market will be aviation and military applications, where mass and volume are more constrained. e.g. the US military has been plowing money into synthetic fuel for decades, and EU countries are targeting 30% of aircraft fuel being synthetic or biomass by 2030.
- kleiba 6y agoIf they're successful with this fast, it will likely stop the advance of electric cars. If the average Joe could basically stick to their current life style but with a clean CO2 balance, I think this option has a good chance to prevail.
- _ph_ 6y agoThe problem is, that synthetic fuels used in a combustion engine mean like a factor of 10 of electricity used for the same distance driven compared to an electric car. This has a cost and an environment impact, especially if the electricity could be used somewhere else with higher efficiency, like heating homes. It also wouldn't change a bit about the car exhaust problems. Also, we are approaching quickly the point where electric cars are cheaper to manufacture than combustion engine cars.
- elihu 6y agoWell, maybe. If electric cars are just better cars, then I think they'll prevail anyways. (For now, gas cars are generally lighter and have better range, whereas electric cars are cheaper to operate and need less maintenance.) A big open question on these synthetic fuels is whether it can be done in a way that's price competitive with fossil fuels. It makes sense for a company like Porche to explore this first, since the average Porche customer probably isn't particularly concerned about the cost of fuel. That said, if this works out and if Liquid piston's inside-out rotary engine[1] works out, it could make the decade or so interesting times for combustion-engine cars. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25450477 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25450477
- pmontra 6y agoRemember when debating about walled gardens, especially iOS, we were writing something along the lines of "imagine if a car manufacturer would sell a car working only with its own gasoline. Impossible!" And yet > Dedicated plant will produce sustainable fuel for existing combustion-engined Porsche models However I guess that those cars should work with any synthetic fuel or Porsche has to build its own distribution network. They don't sell millions of cars.
- azernik 6y agoWe know what "existing combustion-engined Porsche models" look like: they run off of standardized gasoline. If their synthetic substitutes will power a Porsche car, they will also power similar engines from other makers.
- hrktb 6y agoIsn't it already the case with electric car manufacturers, with plug designs and specifications that are not guaranteed to be compatible with other chargers, nor third party plug makers if they ever come to the marker?
- kenhwang 6y agoThat's not really a problem with electric car manufacturers going forward. There's only going to be two standards: Tesla's proprietary one, and, CCS that everyone else agreed to standardize on.
- _ph_ 6y agoNot sure what Tesla is using in the US, but in Europe, they are using Type 2/CCS. Most Superchargers are CCS now (they used DC on Type 2 before and Tesla submitted that as a standard proposal, but the industry went for CCS for DC charging)
- azernik 6y agoIn the US, they use a proprietary mechanical connector - but the electrical interface is the same. So with a mechanical adapter you get graceful degradation to the CCS standard, just without fancy Tesla charger/vehicle communication.
- hannob 6y agoImportant context for synfuels: https://twitter.com/transenv/status/899976235794788352 https://twitter.com/transenv/status/899976235794788352
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- nullifidian 6y agoIt seems that Porches are going the way of mechanical watches -- i.e. complicated, anachronistic, expensive, and through that somehow prestigious, high status etc.
- clouddrover 6y agoPorsche's electric car is the Taycan. Here are some demonstrations of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItCGU7BTBv8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItCGU7BTBv8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m31EgQkswg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m31EgQkswg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jSG_10_JRg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jSG_10_JRg The next BEV from Porsche will be an electric Macan.
- nullifidian 6y agoI know that Taycan exists. So what? If EVs become the norm, due to evolutionary or revolutionary increase in battery capacity/energy density, Porche will be one of the last to stop producing ICE vehicles. Not surprising that they are planning for the future and researching synthetic fuels. "Mechanical watchness" can be felt in their marketing narratives that influencers produce.
- bryanlarsen 6y agoIf current trends continue, by 2030 synthetic fuel generated from solar power will be cheaper than gasoline. This also means that in 2030 charging a BEV with solar power will be 10x cheaper than filling with gasoline. Source: Casey Handmer, IIRC.
- GordonS 6y agoI've never heard of "synthetic fuel" before, and I didn't see any kind of description in the article - anyone have a summary of how such fuels are made, and of what?
- fuzzfactor 6y agoThis is what it appears to be based on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer%E2%80%93Tropsch_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer%E2%80%93Tropsch_proces... So basically hydrocarbons of various molecular weights which gasoline or diesel also consist of, but one article mentioned there were only a dozen or two major components, rather than the hundreds of different hydrocarbons in each of the mainstream motoring fuels which have been refined from crude oil. This could be some pretty clean stuff. The C10 to C20 straight chain hydrocarbons mentioned in the Wikipedia entry would be within the diesel range, and identical to the same straight-chain components found naturally within crude oil. Synthetically this process would be expected to yield much less of the branched-chain hydrocarbons found in petroleum-based diesel, and likely low to insignificant _aromatic hydrocarbons_ like the benzene, toluene, & xylene which are the major ones in the gasoline range. I have made laboratory blends of these materials (still do) for decades as NIST-traceable reference materials for comparison to petroleum materials. Gasoline engines need the next lighter fraction of refined crude than diesels use, plus straight chains are much lower in antiknock rating (R+M/2) so are not acceptable for gasoline engines. I imagine there has been some successful effort by Porsche/Siemens where some branched-chain hydrocarbons lighter than C10 can be preferentially yielded to substitute for petrol. Diesel engines are supposed to _knock_ but not gasoline engines. Remains to be seen, I'm sure to be part of the discussion on the ASTM Committee when it comes to specifications & testing before this could become mainstream. It's an alternative fuel so I'll probably get some of the earliest samples.