3 ms·

Apparently its not, there was one in the 1940's that was worse. So its the usual "ignore any outlier we don't like" attitude that seems common in so many things

Apparently its not, there was one in the 1940's that was worse. So its the usual "ignore any outlier we don't like" attitude that seems common in so many things. Plus, its not like this is unusual. The random unexpected heat wave in oct -> rolling blackouts. Unexpected storm during hurricane season -> power goes out for a week due to unmaintained power lines, etc. Its why you need engineers running your grid, not some politically connected organization which seems to prioritize free market theories above delivering power.

refurb 6y ago
Your most recent example is 80 years ago? And yeah, politics is involved. Unless the engineers want to work for free and fundraise for infrastructure, they need to compete for limited resources.
- StillBored 6y ago
  Power is different. You get to pay the price it takes to produce and distribute even if it happens to be slightly inefficient. Its only when short term MBA/Politics get involved do the engineers who size capacity, maintenance, etc get overruled to save money. Or you can go the free market route, and just let everyone race to the bottom, which means cheap service that fails when it gets cold, hot, traders decide to screw people, or a storm blows through.
  - refurb 6y ago
    Again, unless the engineers are going to secure funding, they need to get politicians involved. And the "free market race to the bottom" is why you have $1,000 computer in your pocket. CA is nowhere close to a free market and is arguably worse than TX.
    - StillBored 6y ago
      CA is the same problem in reverse. There the politicians think they can regulate both the price and the product. Vs TX where they think the bean counters can solve everything. Nowhere do the engineers have a voice in what actually works. So of course they are both dumpster fires. Edit: BTW: if you remember your history a lot of CA's power problems a couple decades ago were caused by free market experiments, which were promptly exploited by TX energy traders. The fixes haven't really helped CA.
      - refurb 6y ago
        I don’t disagree about CA. They are micromanaging a “private” company and making things even worse.
wins32767 6y ago
> Its why you need engineers running your grid, not some politically connected organization which seems to prioritize free market theories above delivering power. Why do engineers seem to think that it's possible to do things at scale without politics being involved? A statement that boils down to "trust this group of people that I am affiliated with because we know better" is an inherently political statement, even if you really do know better!
- StillBored 6y ago
  Autistic power dictators? What I'm trying to say is that electricity is a life/death situation, not only when it freezes but during heat waves too. We go to extremes to engineer airplanes (and we have recently seen how that can fail too). Weighing once in 80 year events as inconsequential and failing to properly design/maintain backup generators (Fukushima), or NG holding tanks/heaters or whatever it takes to secure the supply isn't generally the function of the guy doing the engineering unless he has been given some kind of financial constraint. Same at it was some bean counter who allowed the 737MAX to be sold without redundant sensors or decided to skimp on the training requirements to save some $. So, who was it, who didn't size heaters on the wind turbines correctly despite turbines being installed in far colder places, or didn't build NG holding tanks sufficient to supply the peaker generators for any length of time? Most of those decisions come back to free market financial pressures that are prioritizing cheap over reliable. The grid is a giant redundant system, designed to correct for errors on the part of individual actors. Its only when the system is systematicaly undermined does it fail like this.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  >Why do engineers seem to think that it's possible to do things at scale without politics being involved? Because they're only a stone throw away from physicists in when it comes to the "I know X therefore I know everything higher level than X" flavor of hubris. It'll be interesting to see how the damage stacks up to a California wildfire season or an active hurricane season.

refurb 6y ago

Your most recent example is 80 years ago? And yeah, politics is involved. Unless the engineers want to work for free and fundraise for infrastructure, they need to compete for limited resources.

StillBored 6y ago
Power is different. You get to pay the price it takes to produce and distribute even if it happens to be slightly inefficient. Its only when short term MBA/Politics get involved do the engineers who size capacity, maintenance, etc get overruled to save money. Or you can go the free market route, and just let everyone race to the bottom, which means cheap service that fails when it gets cold, hot, traders decide to screw people, or a storm blows through.
- refurb 6y ago
  Again, unless the engineers are going to secure funding, they need to get politicians involved. And the "free market race to the bottom" is why you have $1,000 computer in your pocket. CA is nowhere close to a free market and is arguably worse than TX.
  - StillBored 6y ago
    CA is the same problem in reverse. There the politicians think they can regulate both the price and the product. Vs TX where they think the bean counters can solve everything. Nowhere do the engineers have a voice in what actually works. So of course they are both dumpster fires. Edit: BTW: if you remember your history a lot of CA's power problems a couple decades ago were caused by free market experiments, which were promptly exploited by TX energy traders. The fixes haven't really helped CA.
    - refurb 6y ago
      I don’t disagree about CA. They are micromanaging a “private” company and making things even worse.

wins32767 6y ago

> Its why you need engineers running your grid, not some politically connected organization which seems to prioritize free market theories above delivering power. Why do engineers seem to think that it's possible to do things at scale without politics being involved? A statement that boils down to "trust this group of people that I am affiliated with because we know better" is an inherently political statement, even if you really do know better!

StillBored 6y ago
Autistic power dictators? What I'm trying to say is that electricity is a life/death situation, not only when it freezes but during heat waves too. We go to extremes to engineer airplanes (and we have recently seen how that can fail too). Weighing once in 80 year events as inconsequential and failing to properly design/maintain backup generators (Fukushima), or NG holding tanks/heaters or whatever it takes to secure the supply isn't generally the function of the guy doing the engineering unless he has been given some kind of financial constraint. Same at it was some bean counter who allowed the 737MAX to be sold without redundant sensors or decided to skimp on the training requirements to save some $. So, who was it, who didn't size heaters on the wind turbines correctly despite turbines being installed in far colder places, or didn't build NG holding tanks sufficient to supply the peaker generators for any length of time? Most of those decisions come back to free market financial pressures that are prioritizing cheap over reliable. The grid is a giant redundant system, designed to correct for errors on the part of individual actors. Its only when the system is systematicaly undermined does it fail like this.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
>Why do engineers seem to think that it's possible to do things at scale without politics being involved? Because they're only a stone throw away from physicists in when it comes to the "I know X therefore I know everything higher level than X" flavor of hubris. It'll be interesting to see how the damage stacks up to a California wildfire season or an active hurricane season.