4 ms·

>That undercuts a myth, propagated by white supremacists, that lactase persistence and milk drinking are somehow associated with white Europeans. Isn't it most

>That undercuts a myth, propagated by white supremacists, that lactase persistence and milk drinking are somehow associated with white Europeans. Isn't it most associated with that ethnic group? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lactase_persistence_in_the_Old_World.svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lactase_persistence_... Even a broken clock can be right...

Retric 6y ago
Not really, it’s more common in parts of Saudi Arabia and Africa than Germany or Russia. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Lactose_tolerance_in_the_Old_World.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Lactose_... It’s one of those things somewhat associated with what is considered race, but not all that closely. Further, the underlying data is very messy.
- will4274 6y ago
  Where is it most common?
  - Retric 6y ago
    Depends on how your counting. If you mean right now and in terms of total number of people probably India. If you’re talking historic rates it varies depending on time period and how local your talking about. With villages in Asia, Europe, and Africa hitting ~100% at various points. If you want a national average today then the UK.
baccheion 6y ago
Yes. In areas of Africa with higher milk drinking, more have the gene mutations leading to lactase persistence.
chrisco255 6y ago
Really? Did this article really have to go there and bring that up? Does it do anything to enhance the story at all or is it just dredging up mud for no productive reason, whatsoever?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- adamjb 6y ago
  When you've got a culture where all research must be "relevant" don't be surprised when tenuous connections are made in order to sustain the grants.
Baeocystin 6y ago
Europeans are not the only group with lactase persistence. It is a trait that is strongly associated with European ancestry.
ojnabieoot 6y ago
The problem is graphs like that are used to misleadingly portray lactose tolerance as a “racial” trait, using an out-of-context bit of science to propagate the falsehood of racial differences between Africans and Europeans. The (real) biological difference in skin color ignited a ridiculous false belief that Africans and Europeans constitute different “races,” and scientists have a duty to push back on racist propaganda asserting a “racial difference” where none exists, even on the racists’ own flawed terms. The high genotypic frequency of lactose persistence in Northern Europe and Saudi Arabia is an interesting and incomplete story about human adaptation to geography and climate (perhaps droughts and harsh winters meant that people were not be able to wait for cheese or yogurt and need to consume large amounts of raw milk?) Another crucial part of the mix is that there is much less genetic diversity in Europe and the Middle East than in Africa. Regardless, if you read the linked NYT article, it’s clear that a bunch of racist weirdos are stumbling across graphs like the ones you presented and are treating “the ability to drink milk without getting queasy” as another paper bag test. Although it’s ridiculous and abhorrent, such ideas wouldn’t be sustainable if people weren’t convinced pseudoscience was the real thing.
- bsanr 6y ago
  It's frustrating that your comment is beginning to slip into transparency, because it's a direct and satisfying answer to the parent's frustration. Don't shoot the messenger.
grawprog 6y ago
I find that whole statement in the article totally unnecessary, especially from someone calling themselves science mag. To be honest I found the actual report from the original study to be far more enlightening. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-20682-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-20682-3 From their discussion section >Our study provides a rare opportunity to link the LP status of specific ancient individuals with direct evidence for their consumption of milk, drawing on combined palaeoproteomic and archaeogenetic investigations. This research clearly demonstrates that ancient African individuals who do not appear to have had a genetic adaptation enabling lactose digestion were nonetheless drinking milk. As noted, not all individuals or populations who drink milk have LP, and ancient dairy consumption may have been enabled by fermentation practices10,11 or gut microflora12, as is suggested for populations today. That's actually pretty awesome. Yet the news article wipes it away with a snide comment about white supremacy. Why not explain how Africans seemingly adapted to drinking milk in ways that were different to Europeans? Why not talk about the possibilities this opens into more research and just how adaptable the human body really is? It turns what's actually a pretty amazing discovery into some political baiting nonsense and I really dislike how that kind of thing is creeping it's way even into scientific reporting.
- mc32 6y ago
  I don’t know. The media today is prone to stirring things up just because they can. I think it does a disservice to society to latch on to a boogeything without evidence or when evidence is disputed. All hacks are Russia or North Korea. Rigor and science (in some examples) perpetuate racism, etc. but it DOES generate clicks, that’s for sure.
- bsanr 6y ago
  Because, unfortunately, lactase persistence has been turned into a white supremacist talking point, as proof of a purported fundamental genetic separation between black Africans and white Europeans. It's become necessary to explicitly distance oneself from such ideologies, as people who subscribe to them become more overt in their bigotry and, in so doing, threaten to upset the social stability that makes research like this possible to conduct and disseminate. IMO the statement doesn't undercut the points expressed in the discussion section. I don't understand the kneejerk oversensitivity to it among people who ostensibly are able to read these types of articles critically and dispassionately. It's also worth mentioning that certain ethnic groups in East Africa feature hereditary lactase persistence (via a different SNP from European and Asian LP groups).
godmode2019 6y ago
Pretty certain this was a 4chan operation 'milk is racist' where they would go and drink milk in public. They try and get random things banned. Like rainbows and milk
jojobas 6y ago
There's more to milk than lactose, Stone Age people would (and did) kill for the ~4% fat content.
- tbihl 6y ago
  The real trick is to get whale milk... IIRC 42% fat
aksss 6y ago
Wait, I thought that's what made white people "white".. No?
duxup 6y ago
Yeah I'm curious about what motivated calling out a "myth"... that appears to be not a myth and, why give it more attention? Seems counterproductive.
- AstralStorm 6y ago
  The myth part is that it is common just in Europeans or "caucasian" race. Lactase persistence is relatively common in many parts of the world. Indians have some percentage, Semites and more. It was unheard of in native Americans and Canadians, and very rare in eastern Asians. I have no idea about prevalence in Africa, must be nonzero.
mparramon 6y ago
I saw that map some time ago together with the one here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase_persistence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase_persistence. However, after having lived in Southeast Asia for a while, I can attest that either the theory is quite wrong, or many many people drink milk with tea and coffee and then have a bad time in the bathroom daily.
- brippalcharrid 6y ago
  The amount of lactose that a person's gut has to process is significantly less if they're only adding it to tea or coffee rather than drinking pints of it every day. But even so, I gather that people in Southern European countries like Italy don't generally tend to drink milk, apart from added to coffee, and even then only in the mornings. https://mydearitalia.wordpress.com/2019/03/16/italian-cappuccino-11-am-rule-the-ultimate-truth/ https://mydearitalia.wordpress.com/2019/03/16/italian-cappuc...
  - mparramon 6y ago
    I lived in Spain for most of my life, and plenty of people drink milk in various forms: by itself, with chocolate or other flavourings, with cereals, muesli, etc. Supermarkets have huge shelfs for many brands of milk, and they're sold mainly in 6-packs.
    - brippalcharrid 6y ago
      Spain is somewhere in the middle, with 30-35% of people being lactose-intolerant, making it a big market for lactose-free milk apparently. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9285380/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9285380/ https://www.bordbia.ie/industry/news/food-alerts/lactose-free-continues-to-grow-in-spain/ https://www.bordbia.ie/industry/news/food-alerts/lactose-fre...
fogihujy 6y ago
It's true that lactose intolerance is quite uncommon in Northern Europe -- to the extent that some even consider it a defect - but most people who'd do that also rarely realise that milk drinking isn't the norm everywhere. Besides, the ability to drink milk developed independently more than once during human history.

Retric 6y ago

Not really, it’s more common in parts of Saudi Arabia and Africa than Germany or Russia. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Lactose_tolerance_in_the_Old_World.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Lactose_... It’s one of those things somewhat associated with what is considered race, but not all that closely. Further, the underlying data is very messy.

will4274 6y ago
Where is it most common?
- Retric 6y ago
  Depends on how your counting. If you mean right now and in terms of total number of people probably India. If you’re talking historic rates it varies depending on time period and how local your talking about. With villages in Asia, Europe, and Africa hitting ~100% at various points. If you want a national average today then the UK.

baccheion 6y ago

Yes. In areas of Africa with higher milk drinking, more have the gene mutations leading to lactase persistence.

chrisco255 6y ago

Really? Did this article really have to go there and bring that up? Does it do anything to enhance the story at all or is it just dredging up mud for no productive reason, whatsoever?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
adamjb 6y ago
When you've got a culture where all research must be "relevant" don't be surprised when tenuous connections are made in order to sustain the grants.

Baeocystin 6y ago

Europeans are not the only group with lactase persistence. It is a trait that is strongly associated with European ancestry.

ojnabieoot 6y ago

The problem is graphs like that are used to misleadingly portray lactose tolerance as a “racial” trait, using an out-of-context bit of science to propagate the falsehood of racial differences between Africans and Europeans. The (real) biological difference in skin color ignited a ridiculous false belief that Africans and Europeans constitute different “races,” and scientists have a duty to push back on racist propaganda asserting a “racial difference” where none exists, even on the racists’ own flawed terms. The high genotypic frequency of lactose persistence in Northern Europe and Saudi Arabia is an interesting and incomplete story about human adaptation to geography and climate (perhaps droughts and harsh winters meant that people were not be able to wait for cheese or yogurt and need to consume large amounts of raw milk?) Another crucial part of the mix is that there is much less genetic diversity in Europe and the Middle East than in Africa. Regardless, if you read the linked NYT article, it’s clear that a bunch of racist weirdos are stumbling across graphs like the ones you presented and are treating “the ability to drink milk without getting queasy” as another paper bag test. Although it’s ridiculous and abhorrent, such ideas wouldn’t be sustainable if people weren’t convinced pseudoscience was the real thing.

bsanr 6y ago
It's frustrating that your comment is beginning to slip into transparency, because it's a direct and satisfying answer to the parent's frustration. Don't shoot the messenger.

grawprog 6y ago

I find that whole statement in the article totally unnecessary, especially from someone calling themselves science mag. To be honest I found the actual report from the original study to be far more enlightening. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-20682-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-20682-3 From their discussion section >Our study provides a rare opportunity to link the LP status of specific ancient individuals with direct evidence for their consumption of milk, drawing on combined palaeoproteomic and archaeogenetic investigations. This research clearly demonstrates that ancient African individuals who do not appear to have had a genetic adaptation enabling lactose digestion were nonetheless drinking milk. As noted, not all individuals or populations who drink milk have LP, and ancient dairy consumption may have been enabled by fermentation practices10,11 or gut microflora12, as is suggested for populations today. That's actually pretty awesome. Yet the news article wipes it away with a snide comment about white supremacy. Why not explain how Africans seemingly adapted to drinking milk in ways that were different to Europeans? Why not talk about the possibilities this opens into more research and just how adaptable the human body really is? It turns what's actually a pretty amazing discovery into some political baiting nonsense and I really dislike how that kind of thing is creeping it's way even into scientific reporting.

mc32 6y ago
I don’t know. The media today is prone to stirring things up just because they can. I think it does a disservice to society to latch on to a boogeything without evidence or when evidence is disputed. All hacks are Russia or North Korea. Rigor and science (in some examples) perpetuate racism, etc. but it DOES generate clicks, that’s for sure.
bsanr 6y ago
Because, unfortunately, lactase persistence has been turned into a white supremacist talking point, as proof of a purported fundamental genetic separation between black Africans and white Europeans. It's become necessary to explicitly distance oneself from such ideologies, as people who subscribe to them become more overt in their bigotry and, in so doing, threaten to upset the social stability that makes research like this possible to conduct and disseminate. IMO the statement doesn't undercut the points expressed in the discussion section. I don't understand the kneejerk oversensitivity to it among people who ostensibly are able to read these types of articles critically and dispassionately. It's also worth mentioning that certain ethnic groups in East Africa feature hereditary lactase persistence (via a different SNP from European and Asian LP groups).

godmode2019 6y ago

Pretty certain this was a 4chan operation 'milk is racist' where they would go and drink milk in public. They try and get random things banned. Like rainbows and milk

jojobas 6y ago

There's more to milk than lactose, Stone Age people would (and did) kill for the ~4% fat content.

tbihl 6y ago
The real trick is to get whale milk... IIRC 42% fat

aksss 6y ago

Wait, I thought that's what made white people "white".. No?

duxup 6y ago

Yeah I'm curious about what motivated calling out a "myth"... that appears to be not a myth and, why give it more attention? Seems counterproductive.

AstralStorm 6y ago
The myth part is that it is common just in Europeans or "caucasian" race. Lactase persistence is relatively common in many parts of the world. Indians have some percentage, Semites and more. It was unheard of in native Americans and Canadians, and very rare in eastern Asians. I have no idea about prevalence in Africa, must be nonzero.

mparramon 6y ago

I saw that map some time ago together with the one here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase_persistence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase_persistence. However, after having lived in Southeast Asia for a while, I can attest that either the theory is quite wrong, or many many people drink milk with tea and coffee and then have a bad time in the bathroom daily.

brippalcharrid 6y ago
The amount of lactose that a person's gut has to process is significantly less if they're only adding it to tea or coffee rather than drinking pints of it every day. But even so, I gather that people in Southern European countries like Italy don't generally tend to drink milk, apart from added to coffee, and even then only in the mornings. https://mydearitalia.wordpress.com/2019/03/16/italian-cappuccino-11-am-rule-the-ultimate-truth/ https://mydearitalia.wordpress.com/2019/03/16/italian-cappuc...
- mparramon 6y ago
  I lived in Spain for most of my life, and plenty of people drink milk in various forms: by itself, with chocolate or other flavourings, with cereals, muesli, etc. Supermarkets have huge shelfs for many brands of milk, and they're sold mainly in 6-packs.
  - brippalcharrid 6y ago
    Spain is somewhere in the middle, with 30-35% of people being lactose-intolerant, making it a big market for lactose-free milk apparently. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9285380/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9285380/ https://www.bordbia.ie/industry/news/food-alerts/lactose-free-continues-to-grow-in-spain/ https://www.bordbia.ie/industry/news/food-alerts/lactose-fre...

fogihujy 6y ago

It's true that lactose intolerance is quite uncommon in Northern Europe -- to the extent that some even consider it a defect - but most people who'd do that also rarely realise that milk drinking isn't the norm everywhere. Besides, the ability to drink milk developed independently more than once during human history.