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It is surprising that windfarms are freezing. Here in Quebec, we have windfarms that have more than 6 months a year of snow and temperatures much below the free

It is surprising that windfarms are freezing. Here in Quebec, we have windfarms that have more than 6 months a year of snow and temperatures much below the freezing point. How can they freeze? they dont use water or gaz or oil. It is only a fan and dynamo. Did water seep inside and freeze it?

s0rce 6y ago
Different choice of lubricants? I have no idea really, I also read they have wind power generation in Antarctica so its not a fundamental problem just a result of certain design/engineering choices.
- nrmitchi 6y ago
  > just a result of certain design/engineering choices I think this is the point. Things are engineered for the environment which they are expected to operate, and to be optimized for those environments[0]. I would not expect a wind turbine that operates (and is designed to operate) in Antartica to not fail (potentially catestrophically) when operating in 100 degree Texas heat, [0] One could (and should) argue that these systems should take climate change and more extreme weather events into account, but that is a political problem more-so than an engineering problem.
  - sjg007 6y ago
    Cars operate across a spectrum of climates... no reason your power plant should not.
    - bendbro 6y ago
      The same model of car physically exists in multiple climates. A powerplant (usually) doesn't.
    - billh 6y ago
      A car is engineered to operated in multiple climates through the use of specific fluids designed for the operating temperatures of the climate they are used in. Further, power plants operate on error margins significantly more narrow than your average consumer automobile. The temperatures, pressures and mechanical stresses are orders of magnitude higher.
  - ecnahc515 6y ago
    Except Texas has had one of these winter storms roughly every 10 years, so it's not like it's unexpected.
  - dathinab 6y ago
    > [0] One could [...] climate change [...] As far as I can tell weather like this happens once in a while even without climate change, something like once in ~25 years or so (just guessing the number). Given the serve effects it can have infrastructure should always be build to still be operational. But if you are a company and there are no regulations you might be very tempted to ignore something which normally happens "just" around 4 times in hundred years. (Again guessed values could be a bit more or a bit less, with climate change likely more then just a bit more in the future).
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      You’re really close! A lot of cities in Texas got really cold in 1989, so about 32 years. There was also a freeze in 2011 that didn’t break records, but broke the energy grid.
- geoduck14 6y ago
  I hate it when I get the wrong lubricant. It can pit a real damper on my own household activities.
- evgen 6y ago
  If you hunt around a little you will find info on the cold weather packages for wind turbines. Easiest for me to find was info about GE's 'Cold Weather Extreme' package for some of their mid-sized commercial turbines. You are looking at different lubricants, heating systems that use parasitic load on the turbine to warm joints and other critical points of the structure, and systems to prevent icing on the blades.
rconti 6y ago
I would assume they use different technology for different climates, or use different maintenance regimes, or simply their operating procedures have different parameters. (that is to say, it might be "safe" to operate them, but they're not "allowed" to). But those are all just guesses.
Waterluvian 6y ago
-15C the other night, watching the wind turbines in Southern Ontario spinning away. It's probably that theirs are cheaper because why pay for more hardened tech if the typical range isn't this?
- pwinnski 6y ago
  Wind turbines have not been the issue here in Texas. They've been delivering more power than expected, despite some of them freezing. The problem is with natural gas/coal plants. That said, yes, we don't use lubricant for super-cold weather, because we don't normally have super-cold weather. So we use cheaper stuff that is suited for our normal climate, where heat is usually a bigger problem than cold. It's been ten years since the last time it would have been important, and 12 years before that.
t0mbstone 6y ago
Frozen wind turbines aren't the problem. https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16/texas-wind-turbines-frozen/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16/texas-wind-turbines-...
- landemva 6y ago
  Natural gas doesnt really freeze, so something else is going on here. Misleading text in linked article: "We didn’t run out of natural gas, but we ran out of the ability to get natural gas. Pipelines in Texas don’t use cold insulation – so things were freezing."
  - zamadatix 6y ago
    https://www.genscape.com/blog/record-freeze-offs-result-widespread-winter-weather https://www.genscape.com/blog/record-freeze-offs-result-wide... It's not the natural gas itself that's freezing and the article never claimed it was. Things aren't misleading just because you didn't know about it - that's the point of articles in the first place.
  - woeirua 6y ago
    Natural gas doesn't freeze, but the pipelines that supply the gas have valves and other control components that can and do freeze during severe weather. Also, the wells supplying the natural gas can suffer temporary shut-ins due to the commingled water freezing and effectively shutting in the well. That drops overall supply. Natural gas wells and pipelines in other parts of the country are designed to handle extreme weather so they don't have these problems. This is entirely a problem caused by Texas' unwillingness to regulate that wells, supply lines, and generators be able to handle extreme cold.
  - pixl97 6y ago
    Natural gas right out of the well does freeze, and the dewatering systems freeze. Been out on a site trying to get one working in 10F weather a number of years ago.
  - fulafel 6y ago
    Yep, LNG boiling point is around -160C so Texas weather would still have to cool a fair bit before you even get to the previous phase change that comes before solid form.
brundolf 6y ago
I've read that ice can build up on the blades and impede function, just like on airplane wings, and that de-icing mechanisms exist but it's likely they simply didn't spend the money on them because nobody thought they'd ever be needed in Texas.
chasd00 6y ago
Quebec has the “winter package” on the wind turbines Texas does not. Keep in mind, these conditions are almost unheard of in Texas and the infrastructure just isn’t designed for it. Like when it’s 95F in Chicago for a week and all hell breaks loose. Different regions are geared for the norms of their climate.
- sjg007 6y ago
  Which is dumb because it's not that much more to make the system reliable in all climates. Especially considering climate change.
rodgerd 6y ago
A nuclear plant stopped generating because the turbine froze; components were exposed to open air because Texas doesn't normally get that cold. People built to a certain set of assumptions, with an implicit risk, and the risks came due. The only way to avoid another event like this would be to make the generation more resilient to extreme cold, which will cost more.
- cbmuser 6y ago
  > A nuclear plant stopped generating because the turbine froze; components were exposed to open air because Texas doesn't normally get that cold. That’s not true. The plant tripped because of a false alarm. The operators said the reactor would be back online shortly after safety checks. A whole turbine doesn’t freeze. The turbines are in buildings, not outside. Edit: Apparently, South Texas has its turbines outside. But these didn’t freeze but pressure-sensing lines failed. Source: https://atomicinsights.com/south-texas-project-unit-1-tripped-at-0537-on-feb-15-2021/ https://atomicinsights.com/south-texas-project-unit-1-trippe...
  - yborg 6y ago
    This is wild - they built a nuclear plant that has its generator sets just sitting out in the open? This seems like a bad idea regardless of what is generating the steam.
masklinn 6y ago
Same reason why the coal and gas plants froze, and pipes are bursting in apparemment buildings, and houses are unable to retain any heat: cheaping out. Since cold is a rare event, Texans figure they can save a penny by making nothing cold-resistant, then skimp on maintenance, all while bragging they have the cheapest rates of the country.

s0rce 6y ago

Different choice of lubricants? I have no idea really, I also read they have wind power generation in Antarctica so its not a fundamental problem just a result of certain design/engineering choices.

nrmitchi 6y ago
> just a result of certain design/engineering choices I think this is the point. Things are engineered for the environment which they are expected to operate, and to be optimized for those environments[0]. I would not expect a wind turbine that operates (and is designed to operate) in Antartica to not fail (potentially catestrophically) when operating in 100 degree Texas heat, [0] One could (and should) argue that these systems should take climate change and more extreme weather events into account, but that is a political problem more-so than an engineering problem.
- sjg007 6y ago
  Cars operate across a spectrum of climates... no reason your power plant should not.
  - bendbro 6y ago
    The same model of car physically exists in multiple climates. A powerplant (usually) doesn't.
  - billh 6y ago
    A car is engineered to operated in multiple climates through the use of specific fluids designed for the operating temperatures of the climate they are used in. Further, power plants operate on error margins significantly more narrow than your average consumer automobile. The temperatures, pressures and mechanical stresses are orders of magnitude higher.
- ecnahc515 6y ago
  Except Texas has had one of these winter storms roughly every 10 years, so it's not like it's unexpected.
- dathinab 6y ago
  > [0] One could [...] climate change [...] As far as I can tell weather like this happens once in a while even without climate change, something like once in ~25 years or so (just guessing the number). Given the serve effects it can have infrastructure should always be build to still be operational. But if you are a company and there are no regulations you might be very tempted to ignore something which normally happens "just" around 4 times in hundred years. (Again guessed values could be a bit more or a bit less, with climate change likely more then just a bit more in the future).
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    You’re really close! A lot of cities in Texas got really cold in 1989, so about 32 years. There was also a freeze in 2011 that didn’t break records, but broke the energy grid.
geoduck14 6y ago
I hate it when I get the wrong lubricant. It can pit a real damper on my own household activities.
evgen 6y ago
If you hunt around a little you will find info on the cold weather packages for wind turbines. Easiest for me to find was info about GE's 'Cold Weather Extreme' package for some of their mid-sized commercial turbines. You are looking at different lubricants, heating systems that use parasitic load on the turbine to warm joints and other critical points of the structure, and systems to prevent icing on the blades.

rconti 6y ago

I would assume they use different technology for different climates, or use different maintenance regimes, or simply their operating procedures have different parameters. (that is to say, it might be "safe" to operate them, but they're not "allowed" to). But those are all just guesses.

Waterluvian 6y ago

-15C the other night, watching the wind turbines in Southern Ontario spinning away. It's probably that theirs are cheaper because why pay for more hardened tech if the typical range isn't this?

pwinnski 6y ago
Wind turbines have not been the issue here in Texas. They've been delivering more power than expected, despite some of them freezing. The problem is with natural gas/coal plants. That said, yes, we don't use lubricant for super-cold weather, because we don't normally have super-cold weather. So we use cheaper stuff that is suited for our normal climate, where heat is usually a bigger problem than cold. It's been ten years since the last time it would have been important, and 12 years before that.

t0mbstone 6y ago

Frozen wind turbines aren't the problem. https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16/texas-wind-turbines-frozen/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16/texas-wind-turbines-...

landemva 6y ago
Natural gas doesnt really freeze, so something else is going on here. Misleading text in linked article: "We didn’t run out of natural gas, but we ran out of the ability to get natural gas. Pipelines in Texas don’t use cold insulation – so things were freezing."
- zamadatix 6y ago
  https://www.genscape.com/blog/record-freeze-offs-result-widespread-winter-weather https://www.genscape.com/blog/record-freeze-offs-result-wide... It's not the natural gas itself that's freezing and the article never claimed it was. Things aren't misleading just because you didn't know about it - that's the point of articles in the first place.
- woeirua 6y ago
  Natural gas doesn't freeze, but the pipelines that supply the gas have valves and other control components that can and do freeze during severe weather. Also, the wells supplying the natural gas can suffer temporary shut-ins due to the commingled water freezing and effectively shutting in the well. That drops overall supply. Natural gas wells and pipelines in other parts of the country are designed to handle extreme weather so they don't have these problems. This is entirely a problem caused by Texas' unwillingness to regulate that wells, supply lines, and generators be able to handle extreme cold.
- pixl97 6y ago
  Natural gas right out of the well does freeze, and the dewatering systems freeze. Been out on a site trying to get one working in 10F weather a number of years ago.
- fulafel 6y ago
  Yep, LNG boiling point is around -160C so Texas weather would still have to cool a fair bit before you even get to the previous phase change that comes before solid form.

brundolf 6y ago

I've read that ice can build up on the blades and impede function, just like on airplane wings, and that de-icing mechanisms exist but it's likely they simply didn't spend the money on them because nobody thought they'd ever be needed in Texas.

chasd00 6y ago

Quebec has the “winter package” on the wind turbines Texas does not. Keep in mind, these conditions are almost unheard of in Texas and the infrastructure just isn’t designed for it. Like when it’s 95F in Chicago for a week and all hell breaks loose. Different regions are geared for the norms of their climate.

sjg007 6y ago
Which is dumb because it's not that much more to make the system reliable in all climates. Especially considering climate change.

rodgerd 6y ago

A nuclear plant stopped generating because the turbine froze; components were exposed to open air because Texas doesn't normally get that cold. People built to a certain set of assumptions, with an implicit risk, and the risks came due. The only way to avoid another event like this would be to make the generation more resilient to extreme cold, which will cost more.

cbmuser 6y ago
> A nuclear plant stopped generating because the turbine froze; components were exposed to open air because Texas doesn't normally get that cold. That’s not true. The plant tripped because of a false alarm. The operators said the reactor would be back online shortly after safety checks. A whole turbine doesn’t freeze. The turbines are in buildings, not outside. Edit: Apparently, South Texas has its turbines outside. But these didn’t freeze but pressure-sensing lines failed. Source: https://atomicinsights.com/south-texas-project-unit-1-tripped-at-0537-on-feb-15-2021/ https://atomicinsights.com/south-texas-project-unit-1-trippe...
- yborg 6y ago
  This is wild - they built a nuclear plant that has its generator sets just sitting out in the open? This seems like a bad idea regardless of what is generating the steam.

masklinn 6y ago

Same reason why the coal and gas plants froze, and pipes are bursting in apparemment buildings, and houses are unable to retain any heat: cheaping out. Since cold is a rare event, Texans figure they can save a penny by making nothing cold-resistant, then skimp on maintenance, all while bragging they have the cheapest rates of the country.