6 ms·

There are often arguments (with merit) over Bitcoins wasteful use of energy, but I expect a lot of it is from hindight of 'why the hell did I not buy some'.

whelming_wave 6y ago
One can think both that it's a shame they aren't rich because of Bitcoin and that it's a horrific waste of energy, I don't think one really takes away from the other.
kerng 6y ago
The energy usage (and its side effects to the environment) seems like a problematic and valid aspect, and it seems that is the price to pay to have truly permissionless, decentralized system (proof of work). But I imagine there is also a lot of opportunity for innovation in that realm to move to clean solutions for instance.
trident5000 6y ago
Just virtue signaling. If bitcoin replaces gold it would be a net win for the environment. And btc uses mostly renewables and excess energy. Also there are many other random applications that use more energy than btc like HFT, gaming, video rendering, but we dont persecute individual liberty, expression, or advancement. A society moving forward simply takes more energy. The solution is to tackle the entire energy space, not persecute energy users which is a band-aid "solution" and counter to a progressive society.
- mlyle 6y ago
  ... All being equal, it probably isn't good to build a system of distributed ledger whose entire trustworthiness and participation depends upon "proof of energy usage". Pushing one transaction through Bitcoin effectively uses about half the electricity that a typical US household uses in a month.
  - trident5000 6y ago
    Going to need you to walk me through that calculation you came up with.
    - mlyle 6y ago
      Bitcoin network uses about 120 TWh of electricity per year. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56012952 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56012952 It accomplishes about 7 TPS. 120 terawatts * hours / 1 year * 1 second / 7 in kilowatt hours = 543 kilowatts * hours. Average US household electricity usage is about 877 kWh per month https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=97&t=3 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=97&t=3 Of course, increasing Bitcoin prices will likely increase the amount of resources dedicated to mining, too...
    - rkagerer 6y ago
      I was skeptical too, but approached it from this end: At the moment, one Bitcoin transaction costs me about $10 in network fees. The party pushing it through gets, say, another $90 or so in reward for mining it (6.25 BTC reward per block ÷ 3500 transactions per block × $50000 per BTC).
urda 6y ago
It's factually a horrific waste of energy. People pointing that out are not looking back in "hindsight", but are actually concerned with the damages it is doing to our planet.
- trident5000 6y ago
  If its so bad then why does Elon Musk himself believe in BTC? - mr green man. Its obviously hyperbole and one dimensional thinking.
  - ncallaway 6y ago
    Have you delegated all thinking on all topics to Elon Musk? This seems like a blatant appeal to authority. If it's not bad, provide reasons it's not bad. Throwing out Elon Musk's name does not provide any actual argument for your position.
    - trident5000 6y ago
      I already listed those reasons in my comment also in this thread. Maybe dont jump to conclusions. Just pointing out different people have different opinions but the frantic people seem to be shortsighted in my opinion and those of brightest on such issues. I think Jack Dorsey knows how it works as well but is not startled. Perhaps people yelling at the sky are missing a thing or 2.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    I am, in fact, very disappointed in Elon Musk.
    - trident5000 6y ago
      Why? Because an application thats important to people uses mostly renewable energy?
      - Wowfunhappy 6y ago

whelming_wave 6y ago

One can think both that it's a shame they aren't rich because of Bitcoin and that it's a horrific waste of energy, I don't think one really takes away from the other.

kerng 6y ago

The energy usage (and its side effects to the environment) seems like a problematic and valid aspect, and it seems that is the price to pay to have truly permissionless, decentralized system (proof of work). But I imagine there is also a lot of opportunity for innovation in that realm to move to clean solutions for instance.

trident5000 6y ago

Just virtue signaling. If bitcoin replaces gold it would be a net win for the environment. And btc uses mostly renewables and excess energy. Also there are many other random applications that use more energy than btc like HFT, gaming, video rendering, but we dont persecute individual liberty, expression, or advancement. A society moving forward simply takes more energy. The solution is to tackle the entire energy space, not persecute energy users which is a band-aid "solution" and counter to a progressive society.

mlyle 6y ago
... All being equal, it probably isn't good to build a system of distributed ledger whose entire trustworthiness and participation depends upon "proof of energy usage". Pushing one transaction through Bitcoin effectively uses about half the electricity that a typical US household uses in a month.
- trident5000 6y ago
  Going to need you to walk me through that calculation you came up with.
  - mlyle 6y ago
    Bitcoin network uses about 120 TWh of electricity per year. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56012952 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56012952 It accomplishes about 7 TPS. 120 terawatts * hours / 1 year * 1 second / 7 in kilowatt hours = 543 kilowatts * hours. Average US household electricity usage is about 877 kWh per month https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=97&t=3 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=97&t=3 Of course, increasing Bitcoin prices will likely increase the amount of resources dedicated to mining, too...
  - rkagerer 6y ago
    I was skeptical too, but approached it from this end: At the moment, one Bitcoin transaction costs me about $10 in network fees. The party pushing it through gets, say, another $90 or so in reward for mining it (6.25 BTC reward per block ÷ 3500 transactions per block × $50000 per BTC).

urda 6y ago

It's factually a horrific waste of energy. People pointing that out are not looking back in "hindsight", but are actually concerned with the damages it is doing to our planet.

trident5000 6y ago
If its so bad then why does Elon Musk himself believe in BTC? - mr green man. Its obviously hyperbole and one dimensional thinking.
- ncallaway 6y ago
  Have you delegated all thinking on all topics to Elon Musk? This seems like a blatant appeal to authority. If it's not bad, provide reasons it's not bad. Throwing out Elon Musk's name does not provide any actual argument for your position.
  - trident5000 6y ago
    I already listed those reasons in my comment also in this thread. Maybe dont jump to conclusions. Just pointing out different people have different opinions but the frantic people seem to be shortsighted in my opinion and those of brightest on such issues. I think Jack Dorsey knows how it works as well but is not startled. Perhaps people yelling at the sky are missing a thing or 2.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  I am, in fact, very disappointed in Elon Musk.
  - trident5000 6y ago
    Why? Because an application thats important to people uses mostly renewable energy?
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago