5 ms·

Except you can't spend it very well and would be crazy to borrow it. Imagine the disaster if there had been a large market for bitcoin loans a few years ago.

trident5000 6y ago
You cant spend it well? Visa, Mastercard, Paypal, Circle are all supporting it.
- rustybelt 6y ago
  Mastercard announced that they will be supporting "crypto" not necessarily bitcoin. Bitcoin itself doesn't have the capacity to support widespread adoption as a medium of exchange.
  - trident5000 6y ago
    Mastercard is without a doubt supporting Bitcoin. I think I need to break down how this works. Bitcoin L1 chain is a settlement layer where transactions are pooled per tx (its not 10 tx per second or whatever people think it is). Regardless, its L2 that processes small frequent transactions. That would be providers like Visa, Mastercard, Paypal, Circle, etc. They process the transactions and keep the account, only infrequently is it settled to the actual blockchain ledger. Then you get into the lighting network. Bitcoin can absolutely scale without issue. nacs: because common sense
    - nacs 6y ago
      > Mastercard is without a doubt supporting Bitcoin. Source? The only statement Mastercard has made is that they will support "crypto" on their network in the future. They have not mentioned which cryptocurrencies they will support at launch from what I've seen.
    - ac29 6y ago
      "Mastercard says that it's only going to support cryptocurrencies that meet a number of requirements—including stability, privacy, and compliance with money laundering laws". So, not Bitcoin. And maybe not any existent cryptocurrency. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/02/mastercard-will-support-cryptocurrencies-but-not-the-ones-you-think/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/02/mastercard-will-...
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  Yes, but who's actually paying the $18 transaction fees to move some Bitcoin to Visa so they can spend Bitcoin instead of cash and incur a new taxable sale with every swipe of the credit card? Has anyone confirmed that Mastercard is even going to support Bitcoin? Previous articles suggested it was stablecoins only. In no way is spending Bitcoin as easy as spending regular old cash.
  - trident5000 6y ago
    Because every transaction on layer 2 is not settled on the blockchain, its simply their cheap and fast ledger keeping track of frequent transactions. Rarely is there settlement. Many dont understand Bitcoin was designed this way on purpose. L1 is for infrequent important transaction settlement. If it wasnt the chain would grow to a point where it could not be decentralized because the chain would be too big for hard drives and individuals to run nodes. It would naturally expand faster than memory advancement and centralize.
    - rspeele 6y ago
      Can you point me to current "layer 1" solutions that you anticipate Bitcoin replacing? SWIFT and ACH don't seem to be it. Assuming a generous 3,000 transactions per block Bitcoin can do ~158M a year. ACH does ~25B a year. It's harder to find numbers on SWIFT but it looks like at least 10 million per day, so ~3-4B a year. Let's say I'm running a business. I have day-to-day transactions going through some higher layer network, but I expect some money "settled" in my account each month. That's 12 transactions a year. The US has around 30M businesses, so that's 360M settlement transactions a year. Already more than double what Bitcoin can do and we're not even talking about, say, having employees paid on the blockchain.
      - trident5000 6y ago
        I wouldnt even make that classification. SWIFT and ACH are not akin to L1 Bitcoin. Theres no way tech illiterate masses are going to physically move their btc on chain. For instance 95% of retail doesnt even move their btc off exchange. Their higher level "settlement" will be different from an institutional provider or exchange settlement where L1 is really used. SWIFT and ACH is used liberally (hence the high tx) because its used in many applications (like paychecks and high value purchases). That type of usage will never come to L1 btc. And that same system of SWIFT and ACH (or similar) will support BTC. Can think 3 layers if thats helpful.

trident5000 6y ago

You cant spend it well? Visa, Mastercard, Paypal, Circle are all supporting it.

rustybelt 6y ago
Mastercard announced that they will be supporting "crypto" not necessarily bitcoin. Bitcoin itself doesn't have the capacity to support widespread adoption as a medium of exchange.
- trident5000 6y ago
  Mastercard is without a doubt supporting Bitcoin. I think I need to break down how this works. Bitcoin L1 chain is a settlement layer where transactions are pooled per tx (its not 10 tx per second or whatever people think it is). Regardless, its L2 that processes small frequent transactions. That would be providers like Visa, Mastercard, Paypal, Circle, etc. They process the transactions and keep the account, only infrequently is it settled to the actual blockchain ledger. Then you get into the lighting network. Bitcoin can absolutely scale without issue. nacs: because common sense
  - nacs 6y ago
    > Mastercard is without a doubt supporting Bitcoin. Source? The only statement Mastercard has made is that they will support "crypto" on their network in the future. They have not mentioned which cryptocurrencies they will support at launch from what I've seen.
  - ac29 6y ago
    "Mastercard says that it's only going to support cryptocurrencies that meet a number of requirements—including stability, privacy, and compliance with money laundering laws". So, not Bitcoin. And maybe not any existent cryptocurrency. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/02/mastercard-will-support-cryptocurrencies-but-not-the-ones-you-think/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/02/mastercard-will-...
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
Yes, but who's actually paying the $18 transaction fees to move some Bitcoin to Visa so they can spend Bitcoin instead of cash and incur a new taxable sale with every swipe of the credit card? Has anyone confirmed that Mastercard is even going to support Bitcoin? Previous articles suggested it was stablecoins only. In no way is spending Bitcoin as easy as spending regular old cash.
- trident5000 6y ago
  Because every transaction on layer 2 is not settled on the blockchain, its simply their cheap and fast ledger keeping track of frequent transactions. Rarely is there settlement. Many dont understand Bitcoin was designed this way on purpose. L1 is for infrequent important transaction settlement. If it wasnt the chain would grow to a point where it could not be decentralized because the chain would be too big for hard drives and individuals to run nodes. It would naturally expand faster than memory advancement and centralize.
  - rspeele 6y ago
    Can you point me to current "layer 1" solutions that you anticipate Bitcoin replacing? SWIFT and ACH don't seem to be it. Assuming a generous 3,000 transactions per block Bitcoin can do ~158M a year. ACH does ~25B a year. It's harder to find numbers on SWIFT but it looks like at least 10 million per day, so ~3-4B a year. Let's say I'm running a business. I have day-to-day transactions going through some higher layer network, but I expect some money "settled" in my account each month. That's 12 transactions a year. The US has around 30M businesses, so that's 360M settlement transactions a year. Already more than double what Bitcoin can do and we're not even talking about, say, having employees paid on the blockchain.
    - trident5000 6y ago
      I wouldnt even make that classification. SWIFT and ACH are not akin to L1 Bitcoin. Theres no way tech illiterate masses are going to physically move their btc on chain. For instance 95% of retail doesnt even move their btc off exchange. Their higher level "settlement" will be different from an institutional provider or exchange settlement where L1 is really used. SWIFT and ACH is used liberally (hence the high tx) because its used in many applications (like paychecks and high value purchases). That type of usage will never come to L1 btc. And that same system of SWIFT and ACH (or similar) will support BTC. Can think 3 layers if thats helpful.