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Sigh. One can’t even point out historical facts without being accused of being a Nazi. The level of discourse really has fallen here. I merely said it was iron

Sigh. One can’t even point out historical facts without being accused of being a Nazi. The level of discourse really has fallen here. I merely said it was ironic that people calling others fascists don’t usually refer to the group who invented the concept.

RIMR 6y ago
Just like how Facebook isn't a social media website, since MySpace Tom already "invented the concept". Do I have your logic down right? What kind of argument is this, exactly? Nazis were Fascists in an objective, demonstrable way. That's not something that's up for debate, and it is extremely suspicious for anyone to attempt to correct the record on this. It's like people who are "skeptical" of the holocaust. That's not skepticism, it's antisemitism, because the Holocaust isn't up for debate. There are millions of pieces of evidence that it occurred to the degree we understand it to have occurred, just as there are millions of pieces of evidence that the Nazi party was fascist. Italians may have "invented" fascism (mostly just coined the term), but they were not historically unique, and they certainly aren't the only fascist movement ever to have occurred. The arguments you make sound like the kind of cryptofascist politics that come out of white nationalist groups that aim to normalize modern day right-wing extremism. If you don't want to get grouped together with those people, consider not talking exactly like they do about far-right nationalism and authoritarianism
- ceilingcorner 6y ago
  You’re reading a ton of stuff into my comment that isn’t there. The origin of the term fascist comes from the Italian Fascist party. That’s what it was called. That’s where the word comes from. This is a historical fact. That is literally all I wrote. Absolutely no where did I say the Nazis weren’t fascists or defend them in any way whatsoever. Thank you for reminding me to never, ever discuss politics on this website. No one even reads what you wrote and instead projects their own inane political universe onto you. No thanks.
scythe 6y ago
>you seem suspiciously personally invested in this narrative... He didn't call you a Nazi. What he said was: you're alleging the misuse of a term, but you're doing so while being very vague and giving brief, angry replies to comments all over the place, and this... pattern... is characteristic of bad-faith and/or extremist commenters on threads about anything posted almost anywhere. If you have some information you want to talk about in detail, I suggest you do so; it is much nicer to carry out discussions when we don't have to guess what the point is.
- ceilingcorner 6y ago
  I think words have meanings, and labeling everyone you disagree with as the most negative adjective possible is dangerous for democracy and society. It is dehumanizing, which only leads to further polarization. Why that is controversial, I have absolutely no idea.
  - scythe 6y ago
    >labeling everyone you disagree with as the most negative adjective possible is dangerous for democracy I generally agree, which is why I tend to have a very high bar for calling someone a Nazi. However, "fascist" is a rung below that. I have generally taken the definition to mean "ideologically selective disrespect for [democracy/rule of law/both] motivated by both a claim of victimhood and a belief in the superiority of [some ethnic/cultural heritage], where particularly the claim of victimhood involves some kind of secret manipulation on the part of [political activists/foreigners/minorities]". It is unfortunate that a major political party in my country has come so close to satisfying this definition ever since the Ukraine affair (confirmed extensively by John Bolton in his recent book), which I spent some time studying/developing around 2016 mostly to ensure that I would be intellectually consistent in determining whether there were actually fascists in the US government. It has never been with eagerness that I called anyone a fascist.

RIMR 6y ago

Just like how Facebook isn't a social media website, since MySpace Tom already "invented the concept". Do I have your logic down right? What kind of argument is this, exactly? Nazis were Fascists in an objective, demonstrable way. That's not something that's up for debate, and it is extremely suspicious for anyone to attempt to correct the record on this. It's like people who are "skeptical" of the holocaust. That's not skepticism, it's antisemitism, because the Holocaust isn't up for debate. There are millions of pieces of evidence that it occurred to the degree we understand it to have occurred, just as there are millions of pieces of evidence that the Nazi party was fascist. Italians may have "invented" fascism (mostly just coined the term), but they were not historically unique, and they certainly aren't the only fascist movement ever to have occurred. The arguments you make sound like the kind of cryptofascist politics that come out of white nationalist groups that aim to normalize modern day right-wing extremism. If you don't want to get grouped together with those people, consider not talking exactly like they do about far-right nationalism and authoritarianism

ceilingcorner 6y ago
You’re reading a ton of stuff into my comment that isn’t there. The origin of the term fascist comes from the Italian Fascist party. That’s what it was called. That’s where the word comes from. This is a historical fact. That is literally all I wrote. Absolutely no where did I say the Nazis weren’t fascists or defend them in any way whatsoever. Thank you for reminding me to never, ever discuss politics on this website. No one even reads what you wrote and instead projects their own inane political universe onto you. No thanks.

scythe 6y ago

>you seem suspiciously personally invested in this narrative... He didn't call you a Nazi. What he said was: you're alleging the misuse of a term, but you're doing so while being very vague and giving brief, angry replies to comments all over the place, and this... pattern... is characteristic of bad-faith and/or extremist commenters on threads about anything posted almost anywhere. If you have some information you want to talk about in detail, I suggest you do so; it is much nicer to carry out discussions when we don't have to guess what the point is.

ceilingcorner 6y ago
I think words have meanings, and labeling everyone you disagree with as the most negative adjective possible is dangerous for democracy and society. It is dehumanizing, which only leads to further polarization. Why that is controversial, I have absolutely no idea.
- scythe 6y ago
  >labeling everyone you disagree with as the most negative adjective possible is dangerous for democracy I generally agree, which is why I tend to have a very high bar for calling someone a Nazi. However, "fascist" is a rung below that. I have generally taken the definition to mean "ideologically selective disrespect for [democracy/rule of law/both] motivated by both a claim of victimhood and a belief in the superiority of [some ethnic/cultural heritage], where particularly the claim of victimhood involves some kind of secret manipulation on the part of [political activists/foreigners/minorities]". It is unfortunate that a major political party in my country has come so close to satisfying this definition ever since the Ukraine affair (confirmed extensively by John Bolton in his recent book), which I spent some time studying/developing around 2016 mostly to ensure that I would be intellectually consistent in determining whether there were actually fascists in the US government. It has never been with eagerness that I called anyone a fascist.