5 ms·

From that article: > Blinded clinical trials show that people with MCS react as often and as strongly to placebos as they do to chemical stimuli; the existence

by mcav 6y ago

From that article: > Blinded clinical trials show that people with MCS react as often and as strongly to placebos as they do to chemical stimuli; the existence and severity of symptoms is seemingly related to perception that a chemical stimulus is present.

forgotmypw17 6y ago
I don't believe this study for a second based on personal experience. It sounds about as trustworthy as tobacco-is-harmless and fat-not-sugar studies of the past.
- fingerlocks 6y ago
  This is why people don’t take your claims seriously. If you aren’t even willing to consider an opposing viewpoint, why should anyone consider yours? What’s the point in having a discussion? Clearly you have some kind of hypersensitivity to indoor environments. I’m not convinced it’s VOCs. They’ve been with us for a long time now, spanning a few generations, and life expectancy is only increasing. Maybe I’m wrong; I’m open to that possibility. On the hand, the only other people I’ve met with issues similar to yours have allergic histamine reactions to particulates that are benign to everyone else. Like dust and grass. I have a friend that gets a shot every few months for it, and doesn’t have a problem when treated. Have you considered speaking with a doctor?
  - forgotmypw17 6y ago
    I don't have allergies, and I am not sensitive to indoor envornments by themselves. I just get very tired and a migraine-like reaction when exposed to synthetic cleaning products and new furniture, as far as recently. I don't need scientific consensus to prove it to me, I live it myself. People I am close with do take me seriously, and the problem is fixed when the VOCs are taken away.
    - sojournerc 6y ago
      VOC's aren't all man-made. You'd need to live in a vacuum to avoid them altogether. The nice smell after a rain storm? VOC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatile_organic_compound#Biologically_generated_VOCs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatile_organic_compound#Biol...
      - forgotmypw17 6y ago
        What are you saying, that because some VOCs are found in nature, any man-made VOC is OK too, just because it is part of the same chemical compound family?
        bawolff 6y ago
        I think the appropriate conclusion would be your sensitive to something more specific than just the very broad class of VOCs in general.
        forgotmypw17 6y ago
        So... the ones I am not sensitive to, are they not harmful?
        URSpider94 6y ago
        I don't know that we know enough to know that. It's certainly true that there are "natural" VOC's that can be harmful, and man-made VOC's that are not known to be harmful. I wouldn't necessarily presume that sensitivity is directly correlated to harm.
        marcan_42 6y ago
        Just for the record, VOCs are literally "anything organic that boils at less than 250°C" (in the EU). Farts are full of VOCs. No, seriously, every time I fart the TVOC sensor in my air purifier goes nuts, as does the one in my air quality meter. It's almost like the thing is shaming me for it :) I would encourage you to learn more about the different types of VOCs, and at which concentrations they are known to be harmful. You might be having true allergic reactions to some harmless VOCs. You might be having psychosomatic reactions to other VOCs. You might not be having reactions to some harmful VOCs at all. Lumping it all together into "VOCs" is not helpful.
  - sizzle 6y ago
    Yep antigen shots worked for my grass pollen allergy
- civilized 6y ago
  The study may be true on average but not in every particular case. The way we do most medical studies today, with relatively small samples and coarse aggregate statistics, isn't well-suited to detecting rare but genuine issues with a high false positive rate.
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    There are also two major issues with science today. The first is that a lot of studies are simply careless. They use a "placebo" which has a scent to give the indication that there is something there, but then the "placebo" unintentionally contains VOCs. Or the lab's janitor uses them to clean the lab, things like that. The second is that a lot of studies are funded by people with agendas. It's all too easy to get an invalid result by accident, much less on purpose. See also replication crisis. So then you either have to know and trust the authors of the study or spend the time to go through it with a fine toothed comb and find replications from independent scientists before you can trust it. Which nobody really has the time to do, so the default position becomes to dismiss anything the reader disagrees with. It's a problem.
- urda 6y ago
  > I don't believe this study for a second You don't get to throw away opposing evidence because it does not agree with the point you're attempting to sell. You don't actually want to have a conversation, you just want to push an agenda.
SilverRed 6y ago
This reminds me of the people moving out to the middle of no where because they claim to be sensitive to wifi.
- judge2020 6y ago
  While not a physical thing, it can be ""real"": https://youtu.be/O2hO4_UEe-4 https://youtu.be/O2hO4_UEe-4

by mcav 6y ago

forgotmypw17 6y ago

I don't believe this study for a second based on personal experience. It sounds about as trustworthy as tobacco-is-harmless and fat-not-sugar studies of the past.

fingerlocks 6y ago
This is why people don’t take your claims seriously. If you aren’t even willing to consider an opposing viewpoint, why should anyone consider yours? What’s the point in having a discussion? Clearly you have some kind of hypersensitivity to indoor environments. I’m not convinced it’s VOCs. They’ve been with us for a long time now, spanning a few generations, and life expectancy is only increasing. Maybe I’m wrong; I’m open to that possibility. On the hand, the only other people I’ve met with issues similar to yours have allergic histamine reactions to particulates that are benign to everyone else. Like dust and grass. I have a friend that gets a shot every few months for it, and doesn’t have a problem when treated. Have you considered speaking with a doctor?
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  I don't have allergies, and I am not sensitive to indoor envornments by themselves. I just get very tired and a migraine-like reaction when exposed to synthetic cleaning products and new furniture, as far as recently. I don't need scientific consensus to prove it to me, I live it myself. People I am close with do take me seriously, and the problem is fixed when the VOCs are taken away.
  - sojournerc 6y ago
    VOC's aren't all man-made. You'd need to live in a vacuum to avoid them altogether. The nice smell after a rain storm? VOC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatile_organic_compound#Biologically_generated_VOCs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatile_organic_compound#Biol...
    - forgotmypw17 6y ago
      What are you saying, that because some VOCs are found in nature, any man-made VOC is OK too, just because it is part of the same chemical compound family?
      - bawolff 6y ago
        I think the appropriate conclusion would be your sensitive to something more specific than just the very broad class of VOCs in general.
        forgotmypw17 6y ago
        So... the ones I am not sensitive to, are they not harmful?
        URSpider94 6y ago
        I don't know that we know enough to know that. It's certainly true that there are "natural" VOC's that can be harmful, and man-made VOC's that are not known to be harmful. I wouldn't necessarily presume that sensitivity is directly correlated to harm.
        marcan_42 6y ago
        Just for the record, VOCs are literally "anything organic that boils at less than 250°C" (in the EU). Farts are full of VOCs. No, seriously, every time I fart the TVOC sensor in my air purifier goes nuts, as does the one in my air quality meter. It's almost like the thing is shaming me for it :) I would encourage you to learn more about the different types of VOCs, and at which concentrations they are known to be harmful. You might be having true allergic reactions to some harmless VOCs. You might be having psychosomatic reactions to other VOCs. You might not be having reactions to some harmful VOCs at all. Lumping it all together into "VOCs" is not helpful.
- sizzle 6y ago
  Yep antigen shots worked for my grass pollen allergy
civilized 6y ago
The study may be true on average but not in every particular case. The way we do most medical studies today, with relatively small samples and coarse aggregate statistics, isn't well-suited to detecting rare but genuine issues with a high false positive rate.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  There are also two major issues with science today. The first is that a lot of studies are simply careless. They use a "placebo" which has a scent to give the indication that there is something there, but then the "placebo" unintentionally contains VOCs. Or the lab's janitor uses them to clean the lab, things like that. The second is that a lot of studies are funded by people with agendas. It's all too easy to get an invalid result by accident, much less on purpose. See also replication crisis. So then you either have to know and trust the authors of the study or spend the time to go through it with a fine toothed comb and find replications from independent scientists before you can trust it. Which nobody really has the time to do, so the default position becomes to dismiss anything the reader disagrees with. It's a problem.
urda 6y ago
> I don't believe this study for a second You don't get to throw away opposing evidence because it does not agree with the point you're attempting to sell. You don't actually want to have a conversation, you just want to push an agenda.

SilverRed 6y ago

This reminds me of the people moving out to the middle of no where because they claim to be sensitive to wifi.

judge2020 6y ago
While not a physical thing, it can be ""real"": https://youtu.be/O2hO4_UEe-4 https://youtu.be/O2hO4_UEe-4