4 ms·

>unlike with law/medicine/plumbing/piloting and practically most other fields The odd thing about software engineering is the number of these jobs that remain

by treis 6y ago

>unlike with law/medicine/plumbing/piloting and practically most other fields The odd thing about software engineering is the number of these jobs that remain unfilled. As an example, Microsoft has 3,746 engineering jobs available plus probably another 1,000 technical roles in sales, service, and support. You'll find pretty similar numbers across the FAANGs and other major tech companies and VC start ups. So you've got lots of open roles and lots of developers that could double their salary but the connection is not being made. Contrast with something like law. Law Firms will fill the roles they have with the best lawyers they can find. There's not a bunch of open slots at top firms that aren't getting filled because they can't find associates that will raise the bar.

throw1234651234 6y ago
Is this really true? Seems to me like they get endless applications.
- geodel 6y ago
  Exactly. It is an old scam. I am surprised otherwise smart engineers still fall for this.
  - treis 6y ago
    Perhaps I'm dense, but what's the scam here?
    - TuringNYC 6y ago
      3,746 openings that supposedly cannot be filled. Except 100,000 people are applying and failing because in order to get the position, you need to pass a test with a 5% pass rate -- because you need to write and debug code on a whiteboard within 30 minutes. Oh, and once you get the position, you dont get all your comp, rather it is in stock that vests over time, and the stock can fall. Oh, and you also have to pay rent NOW (not when your stock vests.) Oh, and the rent is absurd. Oh, and you went to a top school got great grades and you're rewarded with a shitty 1br apartment because that is all your cash comp can buy you since you are limited to one or two cities.
      - hansvm 6y ago
        > rather it is in stock that vests over time, and the stock can fall At a public company the stock based compensation is nearly equivalent financially (ignoring taxes) to getting 4yrs of comp up front that for a period of time can only be used to invest in your employer. That exposes you to a lot of risk, but on average it results in higher pay since on average the markets are going up (not just in tech) and you're able to invest money you don't yet have (contrasted with, e.g., if stocks were awarded according to current market rate). That risk profile won't suit everyone, but it's not inherently bad. > you're rewarded with a shitty 1br apartment because that is all your cash comp can buy Rent isn't thaat high. A nice oceanfront 2br goes for $3k/mo including utilities. Plus, if you really wanted to dip into stock-based comp for rent, your signing bonus will more than cover the difference for the several months till your first grant. > because you need to write and debug code on a whiteboard within 30 minutes. Yeah, that can be pretty shitty. It works out for a lot of people, but I'm certain that process overlooks good engineers.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  They do. Sending a resume is free. Takes a few minutes to apply. It's not like applying to college where, to be competitive you have to write a personalized essay (and pay the application fees). "Johnny is soo good with computers, always repairing the wifi, he should go work at Microsoft.". Relevant: https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/
blamestross 6y ago
Is software engineering a situation where hiring engineers below a given bar would result in net-negative productivity?
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  Absolutely. At a startup it means running out of runway. In professional teams, especially SaaS, it's bugs in production that starts taking more and more time that can't be spent on features.
TuringNYC 6y ago
>> The odd thing about software engineering is the number of these jobs that remain unfilled. As an example, Microsoft has 3,746 engineering jobs available plus probably another 1,000 technical roles in sales, service, and support. You'll find pretty similar numbers across the FAANGs and other major tech companies and VC start ups. So you've got lots of open roles and lots of developers that could double their salary but the connection is not being made. >> Contrast with something like law. Law Firms will fill the roles they have with the best lawyers they can find. There's not a bunch of open slots at top firms that aren't getting filled because they can't find associates that will raise the bar. Microsoft often calls me also. And i ignore the recruiter calls. The reason they have "3,746 engineering jobs available" is probably because it is a raw deal compared to the alternatives -- especially once you account for moving to Seattle and paying Seattle rents. They would have to increase salaries, and poof, all the openings would disappear. Alternatively, they can make the jobs WFH and they would disappear, because i'd be very interested to apply to these jobs if it didnt involve relocating to Seattle, I could live somewhere with sensible housing costs. Anyone can create underpaid openings and they will go unfilled. I want a personal trainer for $5/hr. Except it doesnt make sense for a personal trainer after accounting for costs, especially given alternatives. >> Contrast with something like law. Law Firms will fill the roles they have with the best lawyers they can find. There's not a bunch of open slots at top firms that aren't getting filled because they can't find associates that will raise the bar. Look at the Cravath pay schedule. If you paid these sums to SWEs, those positions would also get filled really fast.
- treis 6y ago
  >Anyone can create underpaid openings and they will go unfilled. Sure, but these positions are not underpaid. They are often 2-3 times what other software engineers make. Location can explain some of it, but in other industries that stuff tends to equalize. >Look at the Cravath pay schedule. If you paid these sums to SWEs, those positions would also get filled really fast. That's pretty close to what the FAANGs pay and they're sitting on thousands of open positions. I doubt Cravath even has one open slot.
  - TuringNYC 6y ago
benibela 6y ago
There is no M in FAANG?
confidantlake 6y ago
Contrast it with the NBA. It is not as if 20 year old Shaq could walk in and they would tell him, sorry the role of center is already filled! There are always open roles for a 7 foot guy who can bench press 500lbs. But someone like Shaq rarely comes along. The teams sadly shake their head and wonder why they can't fill the position of Shaq jr. Then they tell everyone, look! There are unfilled positions! Something similar is happening at Microsoft. It is not like no one is applying to Microsoft. There are likely hundred times more applicants than there are employees. Good engineers too. But if they can't invert a binary tree on a whiteboard they can fuck off. And then Microsoft will claim they can't fill the position.

by treis 6y ago

throw1234651234 6y ago

Is this really true? Seems to me like they get endless applications.

geodel 6y ago
Exactly. It is an old scam. I am surprised otherwise smart engineers still fall for this.
- treis 6y ago
  Perhaps I'm dense, but what's the scam here?
  - TuringNYC 6y ago
    3,746 openings that supposedly cannot be filled. Except 100,000 people are applying and failing because in order to get the position, you need to pass a test with a 5% pass rate -- because you need to write and debug code on a whiteboard within 30 minutes. Oh, and once you get the position, you dont get all your comp, rather it is in stock that vests over time, and the stock can fall. Oh, and you also have to pay rent NOW (not when your stock vests.) Oh, and the rent is absurd. Oh, and you went to a top school got great grades and you're rewarded with a shitty 1br apartment because that is all your cash comp can buy you since you are limited to one or two cities.
    - hansvm 6y ago
      > rather it is in stock that vests over time, and the stock can fall At a public company the stock based compensation is nearly equivalent financially (ignoring taxes) to getting 4yrs of comp up front that for a period of time can only be used to invest in your employer. That exposes you to a lot of risk, but on average it results in higher pay since on average the markets are going up (not just in tech) and you're able to invest money you don't yet have (contrasted with, e.g., if stocks were awarded according to current market rate). That risk profile won't suit everyone, but it's not inherently bad. > you're rewarded with a shitty 1br apartment because that is all your cash comp can buy Rent isn't thaat high. A nice oceanfront 2br goes for $3k/mo including utilities. Plus, if you really wanted to dip into stock-based comp for rent, your signing bonus will more than cover the difference for the several months till your first grant. > because you need to write and debug code on a whiteboard within 30 minutes. Yeah, that can be pretty shitty. It works out for a lot of people, but I'm certain that process overlooks good engineers.
908B64B197 6y ago
They do. Sending a resume is free. Takes a few minutes to apply. It's not like applying to college where, to be competitive you have to write a personalized essay (and pay the application fees). "Johnny is soo good with computers, always repairing the wifi, he should go work at Microsoft.". Relevant: https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/

blamestross 6y ago

Is software engineering a situation where hiring engineers below a given bar would result in net-negative productivity?

908B64B197 6y ago
Absolutely. At a startup it means running out of runway. In professional teams, especially SaaS, it's bugs in production that starts taking more and more time that can't be spent on features.

TuringNYC 6y ago

>> The odd thing about software engineering is the number of these jobs that remain unfilled. As an example, Microsoft has 3,746 engineering jobs available plus probably another 1,000 technical roles in sales, service, and support. You'll find pretty similar numbers across the FAANGs and other major tech companies and VC start ups. So you've got lots of open roles and lots of developers that could double their salary but the connection is not being made. >> Contrast with something like law. Law Firms will fill the roles they have with the best lawyers they can find. There's not a bunch of open slots at top firms that aren't getting filled because they can't find associates that will raise the bar. Microsoft often calls me also. And i ignore the recruiter calls. The reason they have "3,746 engineering jobs available" is probably because it is a raw deal compared to the alternatives -- especially once you account for moving to Seattle and paying Seattle rents. They would have to increase salaries, and poof, all the openings would disappear. Alternatively, they can make the jobs WFH and they would disappear, because i'd be very interested to apply to these jobs if it didnt involve relocating to Seattle, I could live somewhere with sensible housing costs. Anyone can create underpaid openings and they will go unfilled. I want a personal trainer for $5/hr. Except it doesnt make sense for a personal trainer after accounting for costs, especially given alternatives. >> Contrast with something like law. Law Firms will fill the roles they have with the best lawyers they can find. There's not a bunch of open slots at top firms that aren't getting filled because they can't find associates that will raise the bar. Look at the Cravath pay schedule. If you paid these sums to SWEs, those positions would also get filled really fast.

treis 6y ago
>Anyone can create underpaid openings and they will go unfilled. Sure, but these positions are not underpaid. They are often 2-3 times what other software engineers make. Location can explain some of it, but in other industries that stuff tends to equalize. >Look at the Cravath pay schedule. If you paid these sums to SWEs, those positions would also get filled really fast. That's pretty close to what the FAANGs pay and they're sitting on thousands of open positions. I doubt Cravath even has one open slot.
- TuringNYC 6y ago

benibela 6y ago

There is no M in FAANG?

confidantlake 6y ago

Contrast it with the NBA. It is not as if 20 year old Shaq could walk in and they would tell him, sorry the role of center is already filled! There are always open roles for a 7 foot guy who can bench press 500lbs. But someone like Shaq rarely comes along. The teams sadly shake their head and wonder why they can't fill the position of Shaq jr. Then they tell everyone, look! There are unfilled positions! Something similar is happening at Microsoft. It is not like no one is applying to Microsoft. There are likely hundred times more applicants than there are employees. Good engineers too. But if they can't invert a binary tree on a whiteboard they can fuck off. And then Microsoft will claim they can't fill the position.