5 ms·

What interesting software, systems, or products has "Uncle Bob" developed? Why should I listen to anything he says?

mlinhares 6y ago
Not that this makes much of a difference since a lot of the academic production isn't coming from people building products but are still incredibly important to help us build software. A lot of the distributed systems work (like stuff Leslie Lamport did) wasn't part of a product but are all seminal to the systems we have nowadays, they might not even exist as they do if people in academia weren't doing research on it. So you shouldn't stop listening to Uncle Bob because he hasn't built famous software products, but because a lot of the stuff he says is just bullshit not backed by any research or real world experience :)
- sandofsky 6y ago
  Academia is (one would hope) built on a logical, provable process. The material should be peer reviewed. Ideally you can independently reproduce findings in a lab. If not, you should absolutely scrutinize it. Martin's work is purely anecdotal, delivered with an authoritative tone. I might excuse that from a John Carmack, who built systems that changed an industry. Yet I've found Carmack's writing quite humble. Thinking of the smartest people I've worked with over my career, none of them used the rhetoric of Martin. But they all made their living building software, not selling books and corporate training.
bern4444 6y ago
I kind of agree with your comment here and with what mlinhares responded with. There are a few engineers I enjoy following who give good, and actionable advice. One is Scott Wvlaschin especially if you're interested in Functional Programming Another is James Sinclair[0]. A couple other names, Ryan Florence and Michael Jackson (the dev, not the singer). And one last one is Kent Dodds. These are mostly people on the front end (since that's where I work). I've found content put out by all of them (articles, videos, tutorials etc) to be excellent and if not directly practical insightful. They also all actively write software. I recommend taking a look when you have a chance. Better than uncle bob [0]https://jrsinclair.com/ https://jrsinclair.com/
- charlieflowers 6y ago
  +1 on Kent Dodds. Clear thinking and good insight.
staticassertion 6y ago
The article is about disagreeing with Robert Martin, not about why you should listen to him.
- buescher 6y ago
  You're right. On first read I thought it made a tongue-in-cheek turn to why you might listen to him anyway, got disgusted, and stopped reading. My mistake there. But really, why write a whole article about a number of pieces of clothing the emperor's not wearing?
duxup 6y ago
I feel like we could ask that about any author. But we don't go down that road in every post. But do you have thoughts on the actual article?
ohthehugemanate 6y ago
SOLID principles, Release-Reuse Equivalency Principle (REP), Common Closure Principle (CCP), Common Reuse Principle (CRP), Acyclic Dependency Principle (ADP), Stable Dependencies Principle (SDP), Stable Abstractions Principle (SAP)... i'm sure there are others. Oh and a little thing called Agile software development, along with being a major early proponent of XP before agile existed. If you're an object oriented developer, his design patterns are a big part of the normal definition of "good code." If you're in any kind of short project oriented work, his project practices are a go-to resource. I know he's been a software developer since the 70s, but I don't know what, if any products he was hired for became famous. Is that an important bar for someone who talks about software quality amd development process?
- buescher 6y ago
  Actually, yes it is. I'm aware of his "contributions"; you don't have to patronize me. What important software, products, or systems have the authors of the Agile manifesto created? What did most of them do for a living when they wrote it, and what have they done since?
  - charlieflowers 6y ago
    Not the GP, and I agree with some of the Uncle Bob skepticism -- often his fervor outweighs his content. But several signers of the Agile Manifesto have done outstanding things. The Agile Manifesto itself is also outstanding (it may seem obvious now, but it was not obvious to the world it was published to). Ward Cunningham invented the wiki for chrissakes. So let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
    - buescher 6y ago
      OK, the wiki is clever, but it is not really a demonstration of the power of agile methods. I'd bet money it wasn't test-driven or sprinted or crc-carded or whatever into existence. Ward may as well have also invented an excellent salad dressing, as far as that bears on agile. Not a big fan of the patterns movement either; not that there's anything wrong with any of the GoF patterns. The agile manifesto is vague enough that people tend to project their aspirations onto it. It was true then and it's true now. I'm also old enough to remember when most of it was called "extreme programming", so it wasn't exactly a revelation at the time.
dang 6y ago
Please don't cross into personal attack on HN. Articles can be interesting regardless of whom they're about or by. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- buescher 6y ago
  The article by Bob Martin accuses developers that do not follow his methods of being "undisciplined" and "sloppy" - that is sufficient grounds to question, not attack, his qualifications for doing so.
  - dang 6y ago
    Not here though. Part of being a good HN contributor is learning to resist the temptation that comes up, when hitting the most provocative part of an article, to rush to the comments to address it.

Not that this makes much of a difference since a lot of the academic production isn't coming from people building products but are still incredibly important to help us build software. A lot of the distributed systems work (like stuff Leslie Lamport did) wasn't part of a product but are all seminal to the systems we have nowadays, they might not even exist as they do if people in academia weren't doing research on it. So you shouldn't stop listening to Uncle Bob because he hasn't built famous software products, but because a lot of the stuff he says is just bullshit not backed by any research or real world experience :)

sandofsky 6y ago
Academia is (one would hope) built on a logical, provable process. The material should be peer reviewed. Ideally you can independently reproduce findings in a lab. If not, you should absolutely scrutinize it. Martin's work is purely anecdotal, delivered with an authoritative tone. I might excuse that from a John Carmack, who built systems that changed an industry. Yet I've found Carmack's writing quite humble. Thinking of the smartest people I've worked with over my career, none of them used the rhetoric of Martin. But they all made their living building software, not selling books and corporate training.

bern4444 6y ago

I kind of agree with your comment here and with what mlinhares responded with. There are a few engineers I enjoy following who give good, and actionable advice. One is Scott Wvlaschin especially if you're interested in Functional Programming Another is James Sinclair[0]. A couple other names, Ryan Florence and Michael Jackson (the dev, not the singer). And one last one is Kent Dodds. These are mostly people on the front end (since that's where I work). I've found content put out by all of them (articles, videos, tutorials etc) to be excellent and if not directly practical insightful. They also all actively write software. I recommend taking a look when you have a chance. Better than uncle bob [0]https://jrsinclair.com/ https://jrsinclair.com/

charlieflowers 6y ago
+1 on Kent Dodds. Clear thinking and good insight.

staticassertion 6y ago

The article is about disagreeing with Robert Martin, not about why you should listen to him.

buescher 6y ago
You're right. On first read I thought it made a tongue-in-cheek turn to why you might listen to him anyway, got disgusted, and stopped reading. My mistake there. But really, why write a whole article about a number of pieces of clothing the emperor's not wearing?

duxup 6y ago

I feel like we could ask that about any author. But we don't go down that road in every post. But do you have thoughts on the actual article?

ohthehugemanate 6y ago

SOLID principles, Release-Reuse Equivalency Principle (REP), Common Closure Principle (CCP), Common Reuse Principle (CRP), Acyclic Dependency Principle (ADP), Stable Dependencies Principle (SDP), Stable Abstractions Principle (SAP)... i'm sure there are others. Oh and a little thing called Agile software development, along with being a major early proponent of XP before agile existed. If you're an object oriented developer, his design patterns are a big part of the normal definition of "good code." If you're in any kind of short project oriented work, his project practices are a go-to resource. I know he's been a software developer since the 70s, but I don't know what, if any products he was hired for became famous. Is that an important bar for someone who talks about software quality amd development process?

buescher 6y ago
Actually, yes it is. I'm aware of his "contributions"; you don't have to patronize me. What important software, products, or systems have the authors of the Agile manifesto created? What did most of them do for a living when they wrote it, and what have they done since?
- charlieflowers 6y ago
  Not the GP, and I agree with some of the Uncle Bob skepticism -- often his fervor outweighs his content. But several signers of the Agile Manifesto have done outstanding things. The Agile Manifesto itself is also outstanding (it may seem obvious now, but it was not obvious to the world it was published to). Ward Cunningham invented the wiki for chrissakes. So let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
  - buescher 6y ago
    OK, the wiki is clever, but it is not really a demonstration of the power of agile methods. I'd bet money it wasn't test-driven or sprinted or crc-carded or whatever into existence. Ward may as well have also invented an excellent salad dressing, as far as that bears on agile. Not a big fan of the patterns movement either; not that there's anything wrong with any of the GoF patterns. The agile manifesto is vague enough that people tend to project their aspirations onto it. It was true then and it's true now. I'm also old enough to remember when most of it was called "extreme programming", so it wasn't exactly a revelation at the time.

dang 6y ago

Please don't cross into personal attack on HN. Articles can be interesting regardless of whom they're about or by. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

buescher 6y ago
The article by Bob Martin accuses developers that do not follow his methods of being "undisciplined" and "sloppy" - that is sufficient grounds to question, not attack, his qualifications for doing so.
- dang 6y ago
  Not here though. Part of being a good HN contributor is learning to resist the temptation that comes up, when hitting the most provocative part of an article, to rush to the comments to address it.