6 ms·

> Why are programmers so well paid? Why are programmers so well paid... in the USA? In the rest of the world that's not the case (programmers are paid a bit hi

> Why are programmers so well paid? Why are programmers so well paid... in the USA? In the rest of the world that's not the case (programmers are paid a bit higher than other engineers but the difference is not that pronounced as it is in America). Edit: And I would add: programmers are paid very well in the USA at FAANG companies. I would love to know what's the percentage of programmers that work at American FAANG companies (my bet is less than 1% of the world's population of programmers... but I haven't done the math).

lainga 6y ago
I sure wish I had been paid 50,000 [USD exchange equivalent in my local currency] on graduating :)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
franciscop 6y ago
I thought the same 5-10 years back, but at least in Europe things seem to have taken quite a turn and now programming is definitely paid a lot higher than other Engineers (I studied Industrial Engineering in Spain but moved to programming). Same in Japan.
- sdevonoes 6y ago
  > paid a lot higher It's higher, but I wouldn't say "a lot higher". I have lived in France, but I think the situation is similar (if not worse) in Spain, Portugal and Italy: The majority of senior software engineers (more than 5 years of experience) get around 60K euros/year. It's more difficult to get around 80K euros/year but it's possible. Now, the average non-software senior engineer in those countries gets around 45K euros/year. So, yes, 60K euros/year > 45K euros/year... but it's not such a huge difference.
  - 908B64B197 6y ago
    For France, the portrait is very different if you compare "devs in France" with "French devs". It's not uncommon for guys from Polytechnique to go straight to SV, sometimes after multiple internships in the Bay.
  - franciscop 6y ago
    "Now, the average non-software senior engineer in those countries gets around 45K euros/year." For Industrial Engineering (the most common) it's €18k-€22k when you finish the 6-year degree (4+2), and if you go so far as to become "project director" with some extra qualifications you get €71k/year (which is literally a "director-level" position). I'd say that these are rare enough to be well matched with the few people making €100k+ working for a company abroad. One of the problems is that there is a lot of self-taught developers, where they make that same "junior" salary of 18k-22k after 1-2 years of a bootcamp or learning on their own. So this brings the whole average down, but for the same amount of experience (studies+work) I'm pretty confident a software developer makes 1.5x-2x that of an Industrial Engineer for all of their _technical_ careers.
    - xxpor 6y ago
      That's another thing that reduces the effective wage in europe: it's much more common to go to grad school (for engineers) Effectively no one in the US gets a master's in CS, other than immigrants who get higher priority and possibility different visas (think like O-1) with said degree, so it makes sense for them. There are certainly PhD students, but they tend to genuinely want to do research IME rather than just do more school for more money down the line.
JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
As you refer to, it's the presence of FANG's. I wouldn't be surprised to hear movie stars are paid more in America than the world. Los Angeles is the world's entertainment capital. A lot of the answer to the question stems from 'Why is the US a hegemony?'
screye 6y ago
It is the case in India. You can make $60k/yr back home in India in a good tech job. Very few salaried jobs pay that well.
- higerordermap 6y ago
  Again that's for less than 2% of people right?..
zuhayeer 6y ago
Stock compensation is also the real kicker. Probably one the most amazing things that Silicon Valley made widespread is the ability for employees to own pieces of the business. I noticed that many non-US companies don’t provide too much ownership to engineers (although it is starting to change for the better now). As many company stocks grow over time, each employee’s compensation package balloons to much heftier amounts. People’s salaries have the potential for non-linear outcomes. It’s also great incentive alignment, the higher you go the more you’re compensated in stock to tie your work to company performance. See: https://www.levels.fyi/company/Google/salaries/Software-Engineer/L7/ https://www.levels.fyi/company/Google/salaries/Software-Engi...
- ghaff 6y ago
  Stock options were pretty widespread, at least among senior employees, before Silicon Valley. However, we've seen a huge run-up in stock prices at many of the big SV employers since about the dot-bomb recovery.
Guthur 6y ago
It's a skilled job in high demand, for some reason, though I suspect many companies could do just as well with half the engineering department. The same has been true for other trades at certain times, here in Australia truck drivers, welders and other trades could be making an absolute fortune working for the mining companies.

lainga 6y ago

I sure wish I had been paid 50,000 [USD exchange equivalent in my local currency] on graduating :)

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

franciscop 6y ago

I thought the same 5-10 years back, but at least in Europe things seem to have taken quite a turn and now programming is definitely paid a lot higher than other Engineers (I studied Industrial Engineering in Spain but moved to programming). Same in Japan.

sdevonoes 6y ago
> paid a lot higher It's higher, but I wouldn't say "a lot higher". I have lived in France, but I think the situation is similar (if not worse) in Spain, Portugal and Italy: The majority of senior software engineers (more than 5 years of experience) get around 60K euros/year. It's more difficult to get around 80K euros/year but it's possible. Now, the average non-software senior engineer in those countries gets around 45K euros/year. So, yes, 60K euros/year > 45K euros/year... but it's not such a huge difference.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  For France, the portrait is very different if you compare "devs in France" with "French devs". It's not uncommon for guys from Polytechnique to go straight to SV, sometimes after multiple internships in the Bay.
- franciscop 6y ago
  "Now, the average non-software senior engineer in those countries gets around 45K euros/year." For Industrial Engineering (the most common) it's €18k-€22k when you finish the 6-year degree (4+2), and if you go so far as to become "project director" with some extra qualifications you get €71k/year (which is literally a "director-level" position). I'd say that these are rare enough to be well matched with the few people making €100k+ working for a company abroad. One of the problems is that there is a lot of self-taught developers, where they make that same "junior" salary of 18k-22k after 1-2 years of a bootcamp or learning on their own. So this brings the whole average down, but for the same amount of experience (studies+work) I'm pretty confident a software developer makes 1.5x-2x that of an Industrial Engineer for all of their _technical_ careers.
  - xxpor 6y ago
    That's another thing that reduces the effective wage in europe: it's much more common to go to grad school (for engineers) Effectively no one in the US gets a master's in CS, other than immigrants who get higher priority and possibility different visas (think like O-1) with said degree, so it makes sense for them. There are certainly PhD students, but they tend to genuinely want to do research IME rather than just do more school for more money down the line.

JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago

As you refer to, it's the presence of FANG's. I wouldn't be surprised to hear movie stars are paid more in America than the world. Los Angeles is the world's entertainment capital. A lot of the answer to the question stems from 'Why is the US a hegemony?'

screye 6y ago

It is the case in India. You can make $60k/yr back home in India in a good tech job. Very few salaried jobs pay that well.

higerordermap 6y ago
Again that's for less than 2% of people right?..

zuhayeer 6y ago

Stock compensation is also the real kicker. Probably one the most amazing things that Silicon Valley made widespread is the ability for employees to own pieces of the business. I noticed that many non-US companies don’t provide too much ownership to engineers (although it is starting to change for the better now). As many company stocks grow over time, each employee’s compensation package balloons to much heftier amounts. People’s salaries have the potential for non-linear outcomes. It’s also great incentive alignment, the higher you go the more you’re compensated in stock to tie your work to company performance. See: https://www.levels.fyi/company/Google/salaries/Software-Engineer/L7/ https://www.levels.fyi/company/Google/salaries/Software-Engi...

ghaff 6y ago
Stock options were pretty widespread, at least among senior employees, before Silicon Valley. However, we've seen a huge run-up in stock prices at many of the big SV employers since about the dot-bomb recovery.

Guthur 6y ago

It's a skilled job in high demand, for some reason, though I suspect many companies could do just as well with half the engineering department. The same has been true for other trades at certain times, here in Australia truck drivers, welders and other trades could be making an absolute fortune working for the mining companies.