4 ms·

As someone who is forced by my employer to use MacOS, I cannot agree with this statement. MacOS for me is a massive pain to use compared to Linux.

mbreese 6y ago
Genuinely curious — what are your specific gripes? I switched to Macs (many) years ago after being frustrated with Linux on the desktop. I’ve been quite happy over the years, but I also realize that I tend to spend most of my development time connected to a Linux VM or server. So, I’m curious as to what your pain points are.
- nulld3v 6y ago
  - I work in multiple OSes simultaneously and MacOS makes this a huge pain as it has substantially different keyboard shortcuts compared to Windows/Linux. You can kinda change this in the System Preferences but it isn't perfect. - Depending on your distro, installing and updating software on Linux can be much easier compared to MacOS. - MacOS updates tend to break things - Automating things on Linux is easy as I have the CLI. Automating things on Windows is kind-of easy as I have AutoHotkey. Automating things on MacOS is hard because there simply isn't a comparable all-in-one tool. - Docker on MacOS is pain. - Virtual machines on MacOS is pain. - Advanced networking on MacOS is pain (when I need complicated VPN setups or just to connect all my VMs together). I know many of my pain points don't apply to lots of people because my desktop setup is pretty complicated but my main pain point is still keyboard shortcuts. MacOS keyboard shortcuts are just completely different from any other OS and MacOS makes customizing them difficult without 3rd party tools. I would understand how MacOS may be easier to use if you work with a lot of audio or just use it for web/office stuff though.
  - sooheon 6y ago
    > it has substantially different keyboard shortcuts compared to Windows/Linux Not just different, substantially better, in my opinion. The addition of the command key is a 2x+ increase in modifier-space (2C1 + 2C2 vs. 3C1 + 3C2 + 3C3). > Automating things on Linux is easy as I have the CLI. Automating things on Windows is kind-of easy as I have AutoHotkey. Automating things on MacOS is hard because there simply isn't a comparable all-in-one tool. Mac has Keyboard Maestro, AppleScript, and a terminal.
    - nulld3v 6y ago
      > Not just different, substantially better, in my opinion. The addition of the command key is a 2x+ increase in modifier-space (2C1 + 2C2 vs. 3C1 + 3C2 + 3C3). Right, but MacOS doesn't live in a vacuum. It's like the whole XKCD about competing standards again: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/. In my eyes it's not worth being different from everyone else simply because you think you are a tiny bit better. > Mac has Keyboard Maestro, AppleScript, and a terminal. MacOS does have a terminal but it doesn't feel like integration is as tight with it as on Linux. On Linux I can do crazy things with desktop programs through dbus and systemd is easier to use for me compared to launchd (although this is heavily debated). Admittingly the automation ecosystem on MacOS may be better than I'm aware as I didn't look very deep into it.
      - Klonoar 6y ago
        Many of us consider it better, though, and don’t need to deal with other OS’s. Hence why the keys are that way. Why should macOS curtail to what the rest do?
      - sooheon 6y ago
        Yeah, if you move around OSs I'm sure the nonconformity is annoying. I'm in the camp that HCI is better when it's personalized rather than globally standardized, so I heavily rebind and use non-standard keyboards anyways.
      - spacedcowboy 6y ago
        It’s not a “tiny” bit better imho. It’s leaps and bounds. Cutting/pasting into a terminal is effortlessly the same as everything else, instead of some extra modifier to Ctrl-c that I always have to look up in the menu. And find awkward to do as well... I work pretty much constantly in the terminal on macOS ‘open <file>.pdf’, or .jpg or .png or .(whatever) then I ssh to a Linux box and want to run qtcreator on the .pro file and have to figure out what the damn app was called again... Etc. Just like your experience and disappointment with macOS, I expect mine (the opposite of yours) comes down to what I’m most familiar with...
        6y ago
- smabie 6y ago
  Not the GP, but I absolutely cannot live without focus follows mouse and love being able to type and interact with a window without raising it. For example I can overlay a small terminal in front of a web browser and use both at the same time. Using a floating window manager that doesn't support this is wasting a gross amount of screen real estate.
  - kitsunesoba 6y ago
    It's not a perfect replacement for mouse-focus, but most Mac apps can be interacted with without bringing them to the foreground by holding down command before clicking on the inactive window's controls. Also, right-clicking usually won't surface windows. Won't allow you to type but it's good enough for pasting bits in terminal windows, toggling settings, etc without changing which app or window is frontmost.
nzentzis 6y ago
Seconded. I use both on a regular basis - a Mac laptop for work since I have to interact with the MS Office ecosystem there, and a Linux desktop/workstation for gaming and personal projects. Between the two, I prefer the Linux machine on pretty much every axis. MacOS feels far too tied to the GUI-oriented way of doing things; it's often difficult or impossible to automate tasks/routines, and troubleshooting when things go wrong is painful.
- gmanley 6y ago
  I haven't found much I couldn't script using built in automation [1] or if it's lower level one of the LUA based scripting tools like hammerspoon [2]. Mac automation is really robust. Even just the default provided tools like Automator or scripting GUI tasks via Javascript/Applescript can accomplish a lot. Using a tool like Alfred [3] and having "workflows" attached to hotkeys for automated things works wonders. For example I have a "workflow" that lets me hit a hotkey on a playing video and it automatically creates a bookmark at that timestamp which is recorded to a SQLite DB. Any future times I open that video I get a list of bookmarks and the ability to jump to them. This script marks all the currently selected songs in iTunes as loved or the currently playing song as loved. [4] I have a lot to complain about Mac/MacOS and the direction it's gone down recently, been using Mac since OSX came out, but automation isn't one of them. Out of curiosity what did you try to automate that you couldn't? [1] https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/LanguagesUtilities/Conceptual/MacAutomationScriptingGuide/index.html https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/La... [2] http://www.hammerspoon.org http://www.hammerspoon.org [3] https://www.alfredapp.com https://www.alfredapp.com [4] https://gist.github.com/gmanley/750426aa91097aeef3aee5a73a1f5a04 https://gist.github.com/gmanley/750426aa91097aeef3aee5a73a1f...
  - kitsunesoba 6y ago
    In addition, there's AppleScript for automating UI apps, which is capable of calling bash scripts. The reverse of bash scripts calling AppleScripts is also possible. It's super powerful.
  - nzentzis 6y ago
rualca 6y ago
It's true that some stuff in macOS is tightly integrated, but the fact that homebrew exists and is a must-have kind of demonstrates the opposite. Also, I've lost count of how many times my 1yo macbook pro crashed, while my crappy Acer laptop with Debian being subjected to the same usage pattern never did.

mbreese 6y ago

Genuinely curious — what are your specific gripes? I switched to Macs (many) years ago after being frustrated with Linux on the desktop. I’ve been quite happy over the years, but I also realize that I tend to spend most of my development time connected to a Linux VM or server. So, I’m curious as to what your pain points are.

nulld3v 6y ago
- I work in multiple OSes simultaneously and MacOS makes this a huge pain as it has substantially different keyboard shortcuts compared to Windows/Linux. You can kinda change this in the System Preferences but it isn't perfect. - Depending on your distro, installing and updating software on Linux can be much easier compared to MacOS. - MacOS updates tend to break things - Automating things on Linux is easy as I have the CLI. Automating things on Windows is kind-of easy as I have AutoHotkey. Automating things on MacOS is hard because there simply isn't a comparable all-in-one tool. - Docker on MacOS is pain. - Virtual machines on MacOS is pain. - Advanced networking on MacOS is pain (when I need complicated VPN setups or just to connect all my VMs together). I know many of my pain points don't apply to lots of people because my desktop setup is pretty complicated but my main pain point is still keyboard shortcuts. MacOS keyboard shortcuts are just completely different from any other OS and MacOS makes customizing them difficult without 3rd party tools. I would understand how MacOS may be easier to use if you work with a lot of audio or just use it for web/office stuff though.
- sooheon 6y ago
  > it has substantially different keyboard shortcuts compared to Windows/Linux Not just different, substantially better, in my opinion. The addition of the command key is a 2x+ increase in modifier-space (2C1 + 2C2 vs. 3C1 + 3C2 + 3C3). > Automating things on Linux is easy as I have the CLI. Automating things on Windows is kind-of easy as I have AutoHotkey. Automating things on MacOS is hard because there simply isn't a comparable all-in-one tool. Mac has Keyboard Maestro, AppleScript, and a terminal.
  - nulld3v 6y ago
    > Not just different, substantially better, in my opinion. The addition of the command key is a 2x+ increase in modifier-space (2C1 + 2C2 vs. 3C1 + 3C2 + 3C3). Right, but MacOS doesn't live in a vacuum. It's like the whole XKCD about competing standards again: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/. In my eyes it's not worth being different from everyone else simply because you think you are a tiny bit better. > Mac has Keyboard Maestro, AppleScript, and a terminal. MacOS does have a terminal but it doesn't feel like integration is as tight with it as on Linux. On Linux I can do crazy things with desktop programs through dbus and systemd is easier to use for me compared to launchd (although this is heavily debated). Admittingly the automation ecosystem on MacOS may be better than I'm aware as I didn't look very deep into it.
    - Klonoar 6y ago
      Many of us consider it better, though, and don’t need to deal with other OS’s. Hence why the keys are that way. Why should macOS curtail to what the rest do?
    - sooheon 6y ago
      Yeah, if you move around OSs I'm sure the nonconformity is annoying. I'm in the camp that HCI is better when it's personalized rather than globally standardized, so I heavily rebind and use non-standard keyboards anyways.
    - spacedcowboy 6y ago
      It’s not a “tiny” bit better imho. It’s leaps and bounds. Cutting/pasting into a terminal is effortlessly the same as everything else, instead of some extra modifier to Ctrl-c that I always have to look up in the menu. And find awkward to do as well... I work pretty much constantly in the terminal on macOS ‘open <file>.pdf’, or .jpg or .png or .(whatever) then I ssh to a Linux box and want to run qtcreator on the .pro file and have to figure out what the damn app was called again... Etc. Just like your experience and disappointment with macOS, I expect mine (the opposite of yours) comes down to what I’m most familiar with...
      - 6y ago
smabie 6y ago
Not the GP, but I absolutely cannot live without focus follows mouse and love being able to type and interact with a window without raising it. For example I can overlay a small terminal in front of a web browser and use both at the same time. Using a floating window manager that doesn't support this is wasting a gross amount of screen real estate.
- kitsunesoba 6y ago
  It's not a perfect replacement for mouse-focus, but most Mac apps can be interacted with without bringing them to the foreground by holding down command before clicking on the inactive window's controls. Also, right-clicking usually won't surface windows. Won't allow you to type but it's good enough for pasting bits in terminal windows, toggling settings, etc without changing which app or window is frontmost.

nzentzis 6y ago

Seconded. I use both on a regular basis - a Mac laptop for work since I have to interact with the MS Office ecosystem there, and a Linux desktop/workstation for gaming and personal projects. Between the two, I prefer the Linux machine on pretty much every axis. MacOS feels far too tied to the GUI-oriented way of doing things; it's often difficult or impossible to automate tasks/routines, and troubleshooting when things go wrong is painful.

gmanley 6y ago
I haven't found much I couldn't script using built in automation [1] or if it's lower level one of the LUA based scripting tools like hammerspoon [2]. Mac automation is really robust. Even just the default provided tools like Automator or scripting GUI tasks via Javascript/Applescript can accomplish a lot. Using a tool like Alfred [3] and having "workflows" attached to hotkeys for automated things works wonders. For example I have a "workflow" that lets me hit a hotkey on a playing video and it automatically creates a bookmark at that timestamp which is recorded to a SQLite DB. Any future times I open that video I get a list of bookmarks and the ability to jump to them. This script marks all the currently selected songs in iTunes as loved or the currently playing song as loved. [4] I have a lot to complain about Mac/MacOS and the direction it's gone down recently, been using Mac since OSX came out, but automation isn't one of them. Out of curiosity what did you try to automate that you couldn't? [1] https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/LanguagesUtilities/Conceptual/MacAutomationScriptingGuide/index.html https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/La... [2] http://www.hammerspoon.org http://www.hammerspoon.org [3] https://www.alfredapp.com https://www.alfredapp.com [4] https://gist.github.com/gmanley/750426aa91097aeef3aee5a73a1f5a04 https://gist.github.com/gmanley/750426aa91097aeef3aee5a73a1f...
- kitsunesoba 6y ago
  In addition, there's AppleScript for automating UI apps, which is capable of calling bash scripts. The reverse of bash scripts calling AppleScripts is also possible. It's super powerful.
- nzentzis 6y ago

rualca 6y ago

It's true that some stuff in macOS is tightly integrated, but the fact that homebrew exists and is a must-have kind of demonstrates the opposite. Also, I've lost count of how many times my 1yo macbook pro crashed, while my crappy Acer laptop with Debian being subjected to the same usage pattern never did.