5 ms·

Exactly! All of the "YOU don't actually choose to move your hand, it's THIS PART OF YOUR BRAIN" stuff makes no sense. What do you think 'you' are if not your br

by taneq 6y ago

Exactly! All of the "YOU don't actually choose to move your hand, it's THIS PART OF YOUR BRAIN" stuff makes no sense. What do you think 'you' are if not your brain plus your body?

smeej 6y ago
Or for that matter, what existence do you imagine "you" have apart from your body? Even the distinction between brain and body is artificial. Your brain isn't "you" in some special way that the rest of your body isn't. The whole unity is "you."
- taneq 6y ago
  Yeah, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out, some day in the far future when we actually understand the human body properly, that we're doing all sorts of interesting processing in the peripheral nervous system and even chemically outside of nerve cells.
  - ta988 6y ago
    We already have hormones and signaling coming from other organs, and those react to other hormones and signaling, so thats possible. I ahve the feeling focus has been put on fast communication of states (potential in the synapses, neurotransmitters) but we know also about slower processes (astrocytes energy management) that also impact brain function deeply, so I would clearly not rule peripheral impact out.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >Your brain isn't "you" in some special way that the rest of your body isn't. Well, in some way it is, in that they can cut your hands and feet, and you'll still be you. And perhaps if they could just put your head/brain in a jar, and you were still coscious, you'd still consider yourself you...
  - pessimizer 6y ago
    Or if they slice your brain down the middle in put it in two different jars, would they both think of themselves as you? Then, if you keep carefully cutting small bits off of those hemispheres, when would they stop being you?
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >would they both think of themselves as you? If they both continue to think, yes. >Then, if you keep carefully cutting small bits off of those hemispheres, when would they stop being you? When they lose consciousness?
      - ta988 6y ago
        If consciousness is a continous property (which is what I believe it is) and not a discrete one, a precise answer would be difficult. The same way you can loose some visual ability but not all.
    - taneq 6y ago
      Or to use the usual philosophical questions, what is it like to be: - A human brain in a human body - A human brain not in a human body - Half a human brain - Some smaller portion of a human brain I don't think "is me" / "isn't me" is a clean dichotomy. As you lose parts of your brain you're still somewhat you but you're less you than you were.
  - smeej 6y ago
    Without any of your senses intact, what would your consciousness even mean? You couldn't even sub-vocalize your thoughts. I don't think the experience would be anything like what you're used to as "consciousness." The brain still might fire its synapses, but I don't see any reason to believe "consciousness" can exist in a brain removed from a body.
  - croon 6y ago
    If my brain was in a jar, but all my sensory perception linked to a robot body on the other face of the planet (without my brain knowing), I would probably consider that robot body me.
- pessimizer 6y ago
  That reasoning goes farther: What existence do you imagine you have apart from your car, apart from your neighborhood, apart from East Timor or Jupiter? The whole unity is "you."
  - Viliam1234 6y ago
    I sometimes notice how much my environment is a part of my personality. I get to a different environment and some of my habits change, simply because the objects I used for my old habits are no longer there.
- red75prime 6y ago
  > The whole unity is "you." Why don't you aware of each and every neuronal spike, movement of neurotransmitters and so on?
feanaro 6y ago
The "you" is not simply your body. It is also the entirety of that body's physical interactions with the rest of the universe.
- ta988 6y ago
  Thats because our language (english at least here, some other languages have distinctions) is limited and we use "me" and "you" and "them" to signify vastly different things (but that are cause or consequence of each other or cooccuring due to another cause).
WhompingWindows 6y ago
There is no "you" or "self", that's the illusion. The "self" which exercises "free will", that's just another psychologically constructed phenomenon, just like thoughts and ideas and images. If "you" choose to move your hand, it's really just the environment, your senses, and your brain dictating that movement, your sense of self is there as a feeling. Meditation reveals that this is not necessary, this sense of self can be dispelled if you simply investigate it with focused attention. The above example is not a good one, it's a bit of a straw man actually. The better one is this: pick a film and think of it in your mind...which did you select? Monsters Inc? Animal House? There is no "you" selecting these films, its just your memory module skimming through films you've heard of and seen, then some "preference" circuit is acting to decide which film to "pick" for this exercise.
- dahart 6y ago
  You’ve used the word “your” a lot in order to try to show there is no “you”. How is “your memory module” distinct and different from “your self”? How is a “preference circuit” distinct and different from free will? How does this argument amount to any more than reductionist word semantics? What does “you” or “self” mean to you, what was the expectation that you’re trying to break down, and how is it different than the sum of your memories and preferences and functioning body parts? Does it matter that my memory module and preference circuit chose a different movie than yours did?
- taneq 6y ago
  > There is no "you" selecting these films, its just your memory module skimming through films you've heard of and seen, then some "preference" circuit is acting to decide which film to "pick" for this exercise. But my memory module and my preference circuit (along with myriad other subsystems) ARE "me", and when they select a movie, it's me that's selecting it. Just like when my motor cortex sends commands to my arm muscles, it's me moving my arm, not "just my motor cortex". That's what "me" means.

by taneq 6y ago

Exactly! All of the "YOU don't actually choose to move your hand, it's THIS PART OF YOUR BRAIN" stuff makes no sense. What do you think 'you' are if not your brain plus your body?

smeej 6y ago

Or for that matter, what existence do you imagine "you" have apart from your body? Even the distinction between brain and body is artificial. Your brain isn't "you" in some special way that the rest of your body isn't. The whole unity is "you."

taneq 6y ago
Yeah, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out, some day in the far future when we actually understand the human body properly, that we're doing all sorts of interesting processing in the peripheral nervous system and even chemically outside of nerve cells.
- ta988 6y ago
  We already have hormones and signaling coming from other organs, and those react to other hormones and signaling, so thats possible. I ahve the feeling focus has been put on fast communication of states (potential in the synapses, neurotransmitters) but we know also about slower processes (astrocytes energy management) that also impact brain function deeply, so I would clearly not rule peripheral impact out.
coldtea 6y ago
>Your brain isn't "you" in some special way that the rest of your body isn't. Well, in some way it is, in that they can cut your hands and feet, and you'll still be you. And perhaps if they could just put your head/brain in a jar, and you were still coscious, you'd still consider yourself you...
- pessimizer 6y ago
  Or if they slice your brain down the middle in put it in two different jars, would they both think of themselves as you? Then, if you keep carefully cutting small bits off of those hemispheres, when would they stop being you?
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >would they both think of themselves as you? If they both continue to think, yes. >Then, if you keep carefully cutting small bits off of those hemispheres, when would they stop being you? When they lose consciousness?
    - ta988 6y ago
      If consciousness is a continous property (which is what I believe it is) and not a discrete one, a precise answer would be difficult. The same way you can loose some visual ability but not all.
  - taneq 6y ago
    Or to use the usual philosophical questions, what is it like to be: - A human brain in a human body - A human brain not in a human body - Half a human brain - Some smaller portion of a human brain I don't think "is me" / "isn't me" is a clean dichotomy. As you lose parts of your brain you're still somewhat you but you're less you than you were.
- smeej 6y ago
  Without any of your senses intact, what would your consciousness even mean? You couldn't even sub-vocalize your thoughts. I don't think the experience would be anything like what you're used to as "consciousness." The brain still might fire its synapses, but I don't see any reason to believe "consciousness" can exist in a brain removed from a body.
- croon 6y ago
  If my brain was in a jar, but all my sensory perception linked to a robot body on the other face of the planet (without my brain knowing), I would probably consider that robot body me.
pessimizer 6y ago
That reasoning goes farther: What existence do you imagine you have apart from your car, apart from your neighborhood, apart from East Timor or Jupiter? The whole unity is "you."
- Viliam1234 6y ago
  I sometimes notice how much my environment is a part of my personality. I get to a different environment and some of my habits change, simply because the objects I used for my old habits are no longer there.
red75prime 6y ago
> The whole unity is "you." Why don't you aware of each and every neuronal spike, movement of neurotransmitters and so on?

feanaro 6y ago

The "you" is not simply your body. It is also the entirety of that body's physical interactions with the rest of the universe.

ta988 6y ago
Thats because our language (english at least here, some other languages have distinctions) is limited and we use "me" and "you" and "them" to signify vastly different things (but that are cause or consequence of each other or cooccuring due to another cause).

WhompingWindows 6y ago

There is no "you" or "self", that's the illusion. The "self" which exercises "free will", that's just another psychologically constructed phenomenon, just like thoughts and ideas and images. If "you" choose to move your hand, it's really just the environment, your senses, and your brain dictating that movement, your sense of self is there as a feeling. Meditation reveals that this is not necessary, this sense of self can be dispelled if you simply investigate it with focused attention. The above example is not a good one, it's a bit of a straw man actually. The better one is this: pick a film and think of it in your mind...which did you select? Monsters Inc? Animal House? There is no "you" selecting these films, its just your memory module skimming through films you've heard of and seen, then some "preference" circuit is acting to decide which film to "pick" for this exercise.

dahart 6y ago
You’ve used the word “your” a lot in order to try to show there is no “you”. How is “your memory module” distinct and different from “your self”? How is a “preference circuit” distinct and different from free will? How does this argument amount to any more than reductionist word semantics? What does “you” or “self” mean to you, what was the expectation that you’re trying to break down, and how is it different than the sum of your memories and preferences and functioning body parts? Does it matter that my memory module and preference circuit chose a different movie than yours did?
taneq 6y ago
> There is no "you" selecting these films, its just your memory module skimming through films you've heard of and seen, then some "preference" circuit is acting to decide which film to "pick" for this exercise. But my memory module and my preference circuit (along with myriad other subsystems) ARE "me", and when they select a movie, it's me that's selecting it. Just like when my motor cortex sends commands to my arm muscles, it's me moving my arm, not "just my motor cortex". That's what "me" means.