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> The windows EULA (End User License Agreement) clearly states that the agreement can be refused by the end user, and that windows can be returned to the manufa

> The windows EULA (End User License Agreement) clearly states that the agreement can be refused by the end user, and that windows can be returned to the manufacturer. In real life, however, manufacturers typically say that they can't refund the windows license and tell the user to contact microsoft directly. I can't say I really blame manufacturers for doing that [...] I can. If companies want to profit by being a middle-man between the OS developers and the consumer, then they also inherit the responsibility of actually dealing with said consumer. If Microsoft wants to be a pain in their arse and make it harder for them to actually fulfil their obligations as a merchant, maybe they should stop doing business deals with a company that's actively hostile to them. It's the same thing as tech stores that try to foist you over the the hardware manufacturer if you buy a faulty component from them. You don't get to put your fingers in the pie and then claim that you have no responsibility to ensure the quality of an item you're advertising and selling.

harikb 6y ago
> maybe they should stop doing business deals with a company that's actively hostile to them Remember, at one point they were considered a monopoly on PC operating systems. It is not like PC vendors had an option. Not signing on to the cartel was not an option.
- fabianhjr 6y ago
  Anti-trust enforcement? At least back then it seemed like a possibility, nowadays seems inconceivable.
- pydry 6y ago
  It's almost as if the OP is deliberately missing this point.
young_unixer 6y ago
That's what Amazon does. You buy things from their website and pay using their payment platform. The website doesn't make it obvious that you're actually buying from a third party ("sold by: X" is in small letters and gets lost between all the other details). And Amazon lump items from different vendors together in the same product page. I literally bought like 3 items on Amazon before realizing that not all items were sold by Amazon themselves. When it turns out that items are counterfeit, they try to offload a great part of their responsibility onto the legal system, because they see themselves as the victims of counterfeit, not as facilitators [1]. Luckily, some judges are not buying their excuse [2]. (Even if buy items "sold by Amazon", you can get a counterfeit product [3].) [1] https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/company-news/amazon-establishes-new-counterfeit-crimes-unit https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/company-news/amazon-establi... [2] https://californiaglobe.com/section-2/amazon-liable-for-defective-third-party-products-rules-ca-appelate-court/ https://californiaglobe.com/section-2/amazon-liable-for-defe... HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24174276 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24174276 [3] https://twitter.com/nostarch/status/1183095004258099202 https://twitter.com/nostarch/status/1183095004258099202
- gnicholas 6y ago
  I find Amazon’s system very confusing. I recently bought a Magic Keyboard for my iPad Pro ($100 off!) [1] on Amazon. The purchase page didn’t show a return policy, and at the top it said “visit the Apple Store”. This made it seem like the device was being sold by Apple. But of course there’s no way Apple would take a return in store if I purchased via Amazon. So I chatted an Amazon rep to see what the return policy would be for that item. She looked at the link and said “because this item is sold and shipped by Amazon, there’s a 30 day return period, and return shipping is covered.” I had the rep email me a chat transcript just in case her interpretation turned out to be wrong. This system makes no sense to me. What does it mean when you see the “visit the Apple Store”? I thought this indicated that this was the seller? I should note that I wouldn’t buy most Apple peripherals through Amazon, but I’m pretty sure no one is making knockoff Magic Keyboards just yet... 1: https://www.amazon.com/Magic-Keyboard-11-inch-iPad-Generation/dp/B0863BQJMS https://www.amazon.com/Magic-Keyboard-11-inch-iPad-Generatio...
  - amscanne 6y ago
    Brands often have a “store” on Amazon, which is a dedicated landing page. You’re likely the victim of confusion between that and “The Apple Store (tm)”.
    - gnicholas 6y ago
      Oh I’m aware this isn’t the Apple Store (as in the physical buildings). I just don’t understand what the brand store is if this item is considered to be sold by Amazon (as the rep said). Is it just a collection of items sold by Amazon and others that are manufactured by one company? I assumed that the company was involved in the selling. For example, I would be more likely to trust an item is legit if it supposedly comes from “the Apple Store” on Amazon, as opposed to some random Amazon seller. But if it’s just a collection of items from various different sellers, then it’s pretty much meaningless to me. EDIT: can someone explain the downvotes here? I'm just replying to the comment above, describing what confuses me about this. If this is super obvious to other people, then what does "visit the Apple Store" on Amazon mean?
1vuio0pswjnm7 6y ago
It is pretty amazing how Microsoft has gotten away with this, which probably had few comparables in the business world when OEMS first started pre-installing Windows on personal computers. Gates' entire fortune rests on the success of it. I have always thought there is this underlying assumption that generally no person would ever purchase a computer that had no OS pre-installed. (Obviously that is not true, there are exceptions, e.g., pre-Microsoft and even today, with development boards.) If people were happy to install their own choice of OS (if there were choices), then could Microsoft have been so successful. Computers have given rise to middleman-based businesses the likes of which have never been seen before. What we are seeing with the internet perhaps mirrors the PC. As with the PC, where it was assumed that generally no person could do anything useful with "just a PC" without a pre-selected, pre-installed OS, there is an underlying assumption that generally no person could do anything useful with "just an internet connection" without a pre-selection of some certain "tech" companies. It is nigh impossible to purchase computers and connect to the internet without the presence of middlemen and pre-made selections.
- toast0 6y ago
  > It is pretty amazing how Microsoft has gotten away with this, which probably had few comparables in the business world when OEMS first started pre-installing Windows on personal computers. They had plenty of experience doing similar things with MS-Dos; and they had a consent decree to tell them where the line was. (and I think they crossed the line again anyway)
- passivate 6y ago
  We have several "Windows PCs" at work, but my coworkers see them as "PC that I use to operate X instrument", "PC that lets me do Y". While people obviously do recognize the Microsoft logo and brand on them, mentally they're just tools. I think most people view computers as a means to an end - to get something done.
- Animats 6y ago
  It is nigh impossible to purchase computers and connect to the internet without the presence of middlemen and pre-made selections. Who are you buying from? I get computers from Central Computer, which has five stores in Silicon Valley. They charge $30 extra to install Windows 10, $64 for Windows 10 Pro, and $0 for Linux.
kalleboo 6y ago
> maybe they should stop doing business deals with a company that's actively hostile to them Microsoft was a monopoly, and was happy to abuse that position (see: United States v. Microsoft Corp.), OEMs had no choice.
p2t2p 6y ago
They addressed it in Russia btw. Now it is the law that whoever accepts the payment carries the responsibility. So shit like > manufacturers typically say that they can't refund the windows license and tell the user to contact microsoft directly won't fly anymore.
- tinus_hn 6y ago
  Same in Europe, you have to make sure the product conforms to the description so if it is broken you have to react or take it back. I don’t think this has ever been tested with respect to licenses though.
  - gambiting 6y ago
    Retailers in EU(and EEA and UK) have to take the product back if you don't agree with the licence, the problem is that this is not what customers usually want. People want to buy a laptop, disagree with the licence, and get money back just for the licence. Instead retailers will(or should) offer you a refund for the entire device, which is not what most people want.
    - tinus_hn 6y ago
      I’d like to buy a phone and then get a refund for the screen, microphone, camera, battery, speakers, case, antennas and the modem. And the software too please. Of course this only worked because Microsoft put this in the license and they have taken it out long ago. You can’t return Windows for a refund anymore.
      - gambiting 6y ago
        No, you can't return it, but at least in EU you are 100% allowed to take that licence and sell it on, no matter what the EULA says.
        tinus_hn 6y ago
        > Retailers in EU(and EEA and UK) have to take the product back if you don't agree with the licence > No, you can't return it, but at least in EU you are 100% allowed to take that licence and sell it on You’re contradicting yourself. PS license is spelled with an s
matheusmoreira 6y ago
They want all the benefits but no responsibilities. Their contracts and terms are written with that explicit aim. There's no obvious way to fight it either. People end up getting used to it...
anticristi 6y ago
I'm also confused about this. My parents bought a "cloud-based" Smart Thermometer. The start-up behind it went out-of-business and the device got bricked. My parents asked for a refund from the distributor and they complied. Why would it be any different with Microsoft? I understand that it's "cooler" to storm the office of a big corporations, but it's really the middleman that need to take responsibility here.
type0 6y ago
> > The windows EULA (End User License Agreement) clearly states that the agreement can be refused by the end user, and that windows can be returned to the manufacturer. In real life, however, manufacturers typically say that they can't refund the windows license and tell the user to contact microsoft directly. I did just that, called MS and they had very politely asked me to f*ck off or contact the manufacturer again, the license was issued to the small family company where this was a very unnecessary expense (so there were no consumer protection laws applicable to this). In practice this is all empty promises, now I just furiously refuse to deal with Windows and Microsoft because of their dishonesty.
laumars 6y ago
Many OEMs did try to ship PCs without Windows and Microsoft abused their monopoly to “encourage” OEMs and retailers back into the fold. This was one of the cases brought up in the Microsoft anti-trust investigations.

harikb 6y ago

> maybe they should stop doing business deals with a company that's actively hostile to them Remember, at one point they were considered a monopoly on PC operating systems. It is not like PC vendors had an option. Not signing on to the cartel was not an option.

fabianhjr 6y ago
Anti-trust enforcement? At least back then it seemed like a possibility, nowadays seems inconceivable.
pydry 6y ago
It's almost as if the OP is deliberately missing this point.

young_unixer 6y ago

That's what Amazon does. You buy things from their website and pay using their payment platform. The website doesn't make it obvious that you're actually buying from a third party ("sold by: X" is in small letters and gets lost between all the other details). And Amazon lump items from different vendors together in the same product page. I literally bought like 3 items on Amazon before realizing that not all items were sold by Amazon themselves. When it turns out that items are counterfeit, they try to offload a great part of their responsibility onto the legal system, because they see themselves as the victims of counterfeit, not as facilitators [1]. Luckily, some judges are not buying their excuse [2]. (Even if buy items "sold by Amazon", you can get a counterfeit product [3].) [1] https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/company-news/amazon-establishes-new-counterfeit-crimes-unit https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/company-news/amazon-establi... [2] https://californiaglobe.com/section-2/amazon-liable-for-defective-third-party-products-rules-ca-appelate-court/ https://californiaglobe.com/section-2/amazon-liable-for-defe... HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24174276 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24174276 [3] https://twitter.com/nostarch/status/1183095004258099202 https://twitter.com/nostarch/status/1183095004258099202

gnicholas 6y ago
I find Amazon’s system very confusing. I recently bought a Magic Keyboard for my iPad Pro ($100 off!) [1] on Amazon. The purchase page didn’t show a return policy, and at the top it said “visit the Apple Store”. This made it seem like the device was being sold by Apple. But of course there’s no way Apple would take a return in store if I purchased via Amazon. So I chatted an Amazon rep to see what the return policy would be for that item. She looked at the link and said “because this item is sold and shipped by Amazon, there’s a 30 day return period, and return shipping is covered.” I had the rep email me a chat transcript just in case her interpretation turned out to be wrong. This system makes no sense to me. What does it mean when you see the “visit the Apple Store”? I thought this indicated that this was the seller? I should note that I wouldn’t buy most Apple peripherals through Amazon, but I’m pretty sure no one is making knockoff Magic Keyboards just yet... 1: https://www.amazon.com/Magic-Keyboard-11-inch-iPad-Generation/dp/B0863BQJMS https://www.amazon.com/Magic-Keyboard-11-inch-iPad-Generatio...
- amscanne 6y ago
  Brands often have a “store” on Amazon, which is a dedicated landing page. You’re likely the victim of confusion between that and “The Apple Store (tm)”.
  - gnicholas 6y ago
    Oh I’m aware this isn’t the Apple Store (as in the physical buildings). I just don’t understand what the brand store is if this item is considered to be sold by Amazon (as the rep said). Is it just a collection of items sold by Amazon and others that are manufactured by one company? I assumed that the company was involved in the selling. For example, I would be more likely to trust an item is legit if it supposedly comes from “the Apple Store” on Amazon, as opposed to some random Amazon seller. But if it’s just a collection of items from various different sellers, then it’s pretty much meaningless to me. EDIT: can someone explain the downvotes here? I'm just replying to the comment above, describing what confuses me about this. If this is super obvious to other people, then what does "visit the Apple Store" on Amazon mean?

1vuio0pswjnm7 6y ago

It is pretty amazing how Microsoft has gotten away with this, which probably had few comparables in the business world when OEMS first started pre-installing Windows on personal computers. Gates' entire fortune rests on the success of it. I have always thought there is this underlying assumption that generally no person would ever purchase a computer that had no OS pre-installed. (Obviously that is not true, there are exceptions, e.g., pre-Microsoft and even today, with development boards.) If people were happy to install their own choice of OS (if there were choices), then could Microsoft have been so successful. Computers have given rise to middleman-based businesses the likes of which have never been seen before. What we are seeing with the internet perhaps mirrors the PC. As with the PC, where it was assumed that generally no person could do anything useful with "just a PC" without a pre-selected, pre-installed OS, there is an underlying assumption that generally no person could do anything useful with "just an internet connection" without a pre-selection of some certain "tech" companies. It is nigh impossible to purchase computers and connect to the internet without the presence of middlemen and pre-made selections.

toast0 6y ago
> It is pretty amazing how Microsoft has gotten away with this, which probably had few comparables in the business world when OEMS first started pre-installing Windows on personal computers. They had plenty of experience doing similar things with MS-Dos; and they had a consent decree to tell them where the line was. (and I think they crossed the line again anyway)
passivate 6y ago
We have several "Windows PCs" at work, but my coworkers see them as "PC that I use to operate X instrument", "PC that lets me do Y". While people obviously do recognize the Microsoft logo and brand on them, mentally they're just tools. I think most people view computers as a means to an end - to get something done.
Animats 6y ago
It is nigh impossible to purchase computers and connect to the internet without the presence of middlemen and pre-made selections. Who are you buying from? I get computers from Central Computer, which has five stores in Silicon Valley. They charge $30 extra to install Windows 10, $64 for Windows 10 Pro, and $0 for Linux.

kalleboo 6y ago

> maybe they should stop doing business deals with a company that's actively hostile to them Microsoft was a monopoly, and was happy to abuse that position (see: United States v. Microsoft Corp.), OEMs had no choice.

p2t2p 6y ago

They addressed it in Russia btw. Now it is the law that whoever accepts the payment carries the responsibility. So shit like > manufacturers typically say that they can't refund the windows license and tell the user to contact microsoft directly won't fly anymore.

tinus_hn 6y ago
Same in Europe, you have to make sure the product conforms to the description so if it is broken you have to react or take it back. I don’t think this has ever been tested with respect to licenses though.
- gambiting 6y ago
  Retailers in EU(and EEA and UK) have to take the product back if you don't agree with the licence, the problem is that this is not what customers usually want. People want to buy a laptop, disagree with the licence, and get money back just for the licence. Instead retailers will(or should) offer you a refund for the entire device, which is not what most people want.
  - tinus_hn 6y ago
    I’d like to buy a phone and then get a refund for the screen, microphone, camera, battery, speakers, case, antennas and the modem. And the software too please. Of course this only worked because Microsoft put this in the license and they have taken it out long ago. You can’t return Windows for a refund anymore.
    - gambiting 6y ago
      No, you can't return it, but at least in EU you are 100% allowed to take that licence and sell it on, no matter what the EULA says.
      - tinus_hn 6y ago
        > Retailers in EU(and EEA and UK) have to take the product back if you don't agree with the licence > No, you can't return it, but at least in EU you are 100% allowed to take that licence and sell it on You’re contradicting yourself. PS license is spelled with an s

matheusmoreira 6y ago

They want all the benefits but no responsibilities. Their contracts and terms are written with that explicit aim. There's no obvious way to fight it either. People end up getting used to it...

anticristi 6y ago

I'm also confused about this. My parents bought a "cloud-based" Smart Thermometer. The start-up behind it went out-of-business and the device got bricked. My parents asked for a refund from the distributor and they complied. Why would it be any different with Microsoft? I understand that it's "cooler" to storm the office of a big corporations, but it's really the middleman that need to take responsibility here.

type0 6y ago

> > The windows EULA (End User License Agreement) clearly states that the agreement can be refused by the end user, and that windows can be returned to the manufacturer. In real life, however, manufacturers typically say that they can't refund the windows license and tell the user to contact microsoft directly. I did just that, called MS and they had very politely asked me to f*ck off or contact the manufacturer again, the license was issued to the small family company where this was a very unnecessary expense (so there were no consumer protection laws applicable to this). In practice this is all empty promises, now I just furiously refuse to deal with Windows and Microsoft because of their dishonesty.

laumars 6y ago

Many OEMs did try to ship PCs without Windows and Microsoft abused their monopoly to “encourage” OEMs and retailers back into the fold. This was one of the cases brought up in the Microsoft anti-trust investigations.