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>"Of course, with Brexit, I'm headed for Zurich." I would be curious what the tech job market is like like in Zurich. Can you elaborate on that are you EU resi

>"Of course, with Brexit, I'm headed for Zurich." I would be curious what the tech job market is like like in Zurich. Can you elaborate on that are you EU resident or have taken a job offer with a company based there?

cletus 6y ago
I worked for a time in Zurich years ago so this may not be current but there are some tech jobs in Switzerland (eg Google has a decently sized office there). It's less than in, say, London. Switzerland is actually a dream for car-free living. You only need a car if you live in a rural area. Taxes are pretty low. There a bunch of mandatory insurances you need but my experience was your net income position was substantially better than being a salaried employee in London (although food in particular is MUCH more expensive in Switzerland such that people will drive an hour to Aldi across the border in Germany to go shopping). Fun fact #1: there are limits to how many groceries you can bring into Switzerland. Meat in particular. You can get checked for this at the border. Fun fact #2: IIRC years ago the supermarket just across the border in Germany had the highest revenue of any supermarket in Germany. As for work authorization, it is relatively easy for EU citizens to get and somewhat harder for non-EU citizens. It generally takes 5 years on a B permit (work visa) to get a C permit (permanent residence) if you're EU, 10 if you're not. I imagine with Brexit, UK citizens are now in the harder category.
- bogomipz 6y ago
  Thanks. I think I knew Google had an office there. I'm curious if you or anyone else knows if there are other interesting tech or startup shops there?
  - Leherenn 6y ago
    I'd say there are 4 main places in Switzerland: around both ETH (the most prestigious universities) in Zürich and Lausanne, with plenty of spinoffs, in Geneva (mostly finance) and in Zug (lots of crypto). Zürich has all (most?) of the big tech, plus lots of start-ups. Lausanne is mostly just start-ups and small companies.
barrkel 6y ago
For money, it's mostly Google. And that's the offer I've taken, turning down an AWS offer in Berlin. I am an EU citizen, so there's no meaningful barrier to living in Switzerland. It was a very hard choice vs Berlin though.
- bogomipz 6y ago
  Was it a difficult choice because of lifestyle in Berlin vs Zurich? I would curious to hear your thoughts on that. Does AWS have an engineering office in Berlin now?
  - barrkel 6y ago
    It's AWS Redshift in particular, in Berlin. My background in data volume and query optimization, along with compiler development, made me a particular fit. The Google job is actually a worse fit, focusing mostly on data volume, schema management and APIs. But I probably won't be in the same role indefinitely. Why Berlin vs Zurich decision was hard: in part the cost of living (e.g. childcare) in Zurich, the fact it's outside the EU (e.g. very little consumer protection, less consumer choice, a hard border with customs), and the relative conservatism of society leading to a lot of things which make it harder for women to work: early closing of shops (not that different to Berlin to be sure), apartment living and limitations on running washing machines (if you don't have a housewife to do laundry during the day), school finishing early on Wednesdays and 2 hour lunches where children are expected to go home and eat (housewife again), etc. My partner half-jokes that we should get a housewife or maybe one each. Oh and recycling religion which I don't buy into - I reckon there are very few things which it makes sense to recycle heavily - primarily metals - but Switzerland promotes it as a virtue. Sorting recycling materials does not make me feel virtuous; it makes me want to pay someone to remove the problem. This isn't that much different to Germany though. I reckon the AWS salary in Berlin would have put me higher in the income distribution for the city than the Google salary in Zurich, but overall, even accounting for higher costs, I expect to have a lot more disposable income in Zurich. Taxes, for one thing, are lower - though where you live can make a substantial difference. Lifestyle as in nightlife, restaurants, multiculturalism etc.: not such a big deal to me right now with a 12 month old kid. As a motorcyclist I like the idea of the Alps and less crime. I've had 6 motorcycles taken in London, including one bikejacking at a stop light and not including an attempted bikejacking where I outran my pursuers to help. For younger single people I think Berlin would be a better choice. We already had much of that experience in London before Brexit though. Zurich is also much closer to western Europe. Munich, Milan and Paris (surprisingly) are 4 hours by train. Berlin is almost in Poland. From my EUrail trip in the 2000s, I recall acutely how pleasant it was to be in Switzerland after having gone through most of the ex Eastern Block countries, to Greece, then ferry to Italy and up over the Alps.

cletus 6y ago

I worked for a time in Zurich years ago so this may not be current but there are some tech jobs in Switzerland (eg Google has a decently sized office there). It's less than in, say, London. Switzerland is actually a dream for car-free living. You only need a car if you live in a rural area. Taxes are pretty low. There a bunch of mandatory insurances you need but my experience was your net income position was substantially better than being a salaried employee in London (although food in particular is MUCH more expensive in Switzerland such that people will drive an hour to Aldi across the border in Germany to go shopping). Fun fact #1: there are limits to how many groceries you can bring into Switzerland. Meat in particular. You can get checked for this at the border. Fun fact #2: IIRC years ago the supermarket just across the border in Germany had the highest revenue of any supermarket in Germany. As for work authorization, it is relatively easy for EU citizens to get and somewhat harder for non-EU citizens. It generally takes 5 years on a B permit (work visa) to get a C permit (permanent residence) if you're EU, 10 if you're not. I imagine with Brexit, UK citizens are now in the harder category.

bogomipz 6y ago
Thanks. I think I knew Google had an office there. I'm curious if you or anyone else knows if there are other interesting tech or startup shops there?
- Leherenn 6y ago
  I'd say there are 4 main places in Switzerland: around both ETH (the most prestigious universities) in Zürich and Lausanne, with plenty of spinoffs, in Geneva (mostly finance) and in Zug (lots of crypto). Zürich has all (most?) of the big tech, plus lots of start-ups. Lausanne is mostly just start-ups and small companies.

barrkel 6y ago

For money, it's mostly Google. And that's the offer I've taken, turning down an AWS offer in Berlin. I am an EU citizen, so there's no meaningful barrier to living in Switzerland. It was a very hard choice vs Berlin though.

bogomipz 6y ago
Was it a difficult choice because of lifestyle in Berlin vs Zurich? I would curious to hear your thoughts on that. Does AWS have an engineering office in Berlin now?
- barrkel 6y ago
  It's AWS Redshift in particular, in Berlin. My background in data volume and query optimization, along with compiler development, made me a particular fit. The Google job is actually a worse fit, focusing mostly on data volume, schema management and APIs. But I probably won't be in the same role indefinitely. Why Berlin vs Zurich decision was hard: in part the cost of living (e.g. childcare) in Zurich, the fact it's outside the EU (e.g. very little consumer protection, less consumer choice, a hard border with customs), and the relative conservatism of society leading to a lot of things which make it harder for women to work: early closing of shops (not that different to Berlin to be sure), apartment living and limitations on running washing machines (if you don't have a housewife to do laundry during the day), school finishing early on Wednesdays and 2 hour lunches where children are expected to go home and eat (housewife again), etc. My partner half-jokes that we should get a housewife or maybe one each. Oh and recycling religion which I don't buy into - I reckon there are very few things which it makes sense to recycle heavily - primarily metals - but Switzerland promotes it as a virtue. Sorting recycling materials does not make me feel virtuous; it makes me want to pay someone to remove the problem. This isn't that much different to Germany though. I reckon the AWS salary in Berlin would have put me higher in the income distribution for the city than the Google salary in Zurich, but overall, even accounting for higher costs, I expect to have a lot more disposable income in Zurich. Taxes, for one thing, are lower - though where you live can make a substantial difference. Lifestyle as in nightlife, restaurants, multiculturalism etc.: not such a big deal to me right now with a 12 month old kid. As a motorcyclist I like the idea of the Alps and less crime. I've had 6 motorcycles taken in London, including one bikejacking at a stop light and not including an attempted bikejacking where I outran my pursuers to help. For younger single people I think Berlin would be a better choice. We already had much of that experience in London before Brexit though. Zurich is also much closer to western Europe. Munich, Milan and Paris (surprisingly) are 4 hours by train. Berlin is almost in Poland. From my EUrail trip in the 2000s, I recall acutely how pleasant it was to be in Switzerland after having gone through most of the ex Eastern Block countries, to Greece, then ferry to Italy and up over the Alps.