12 ms·

Windows Refund Day (1999)

370 points by ransom_rs 6y ago

chovybizzass 6y ago
nothing has changed.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  A lot has changed. No thanks to Microsoft, but a lot has changed. Drivers are much better now and many large companies supply their own drivers (though frustratingly often as binaries). Some companies like Dell offer Linux specific SKUs with somewhat tuned drivers. There are companies making Linux first desktops. Linux first servers are extremely common. There is a lot of hardware not just shipping with Linux but designed for Linux first. It's a world better now than it was in the mid-late 90s.
  - shmerl 6y ago
    I think it was meant in regards to refunding the Windowx tax or buying computers with Linux preinstalled universally. Some like Lenovo were giving customers very hard time in getting a refund. And only very recently they started offering Linux preinstalled on some of their models for regular users. Some things like you mentioned above are of course much better today. But Windows tax situation is still a mess.
    - bostonsre 6y ago
      Yea, would have to say there's a lot more options now. It kind of seems like an elephant in the room, so want to call it out.... Is windows better or worse than macs/osx with Linux hostility? To me, it seems like Microsoft is less bad than Apple in this regard.
      - shmerl 6y ago
        In regards to lock-in, both MS and Apple can be quite irritating (DirectX / Metal instead of backing Vulkan are glaring examples). But Apple seems to be worse overall, they are more like MS from the '90s in their lock-in obsession. MS did some positive things recently. Like freed up exfat for Linux to use. But when it comes to gaming for example, MS are still pretty unfriendly in their old ways.
      - ogre_codes 6y ago
        > Is windows better or worse than macs/osx with Linux hostility? To me, it seems like Microsoft is less bad than Apple in this regard. I'm not sure what you mean. Personally I like the Mac because it lets me run Unix stuff in a no BS way from the command line. It also runs Docker fine (haven't tried it on the M1). It doesn't have something like WSL, but it doesn't really need it because you can compile most things for the MacOS command line. Windows needs to run Linux well because it isn't Unix. The Mac is BSD Unix.
        nly 6y ago
        The docker experience on Linux is vastly superior to that on Windows or macOS though
        bostonsre 6y ago
        I mean that you can't buy a computer with mac hardware and linux os. Microsoft isn't forcing hardware vendors to only use windows. Osx unix is still vastly different from most production environments. I really like wsl because I can use whatever linux os that I'm comfortable with and have access to a wide range of supported apps on windows. It seems really elegant to me and its not just running a linux vm on windows like most assume. The integration between wsl and windows is pretty neat. e.g. this is in my .bashrc in wsl, it copies output to my windows clipboard (and note that its a windows exe that im invoking from wsl). function cb () { powershell.exe -command "\$input | set-clipboard" }
        ogre_codes 6y ago
        I’m still not following you here. I’ve done Django on MacOS, run Kubernetes Klusters, done Java Spring, Ruby, MySQL, Postgresql, MongoDB, Express.js, Koa, etc etc etc. The MacOS shell is different from production Linux. So is WSL, so is whatever version of Linux you are running at home. If you want to mirror a product environment perfectly, you use Docker. Otherwise, most people aren’t going to see big differences.
schoen 6y ago
Hey, I was there! I'm the one in the jean jacket, and the plastic penguins that people are holding up were mine (and I still have them!). Edit: I also still have my copy of the form letter that Microsoft handed out to us, which I transcribed at http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/dear-valued-customer.html http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/dear-valued-customer.html
- pfarrell 6y ago
  Thanks for sharing. I’m not a Microsoft apologist, but that “Dear Valued Customer” is a clever, corporatey middle finger. I’d have been so pissed :)
- ncmncm 6y ago
  Is that you Seth?
  - schoen 6y ago
    Sure enough!
- Ayesh 6y ago
  Wow this letter is brutal!
sevensor 6y ago
His appearance at this event must have been just about peak ESR. I've been following his long slow slide into crank-dom on his blog, at least up until its stop last fall. I wonder what he's up to now.
1shooner 6y ago
I was still on the family G3 in 1999, was it difficult to buy a PC without Windows at the time?
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  Microsoft had contracts with all of the OEMs, if an OEM wanted Microsoft's OEM pricing, they needed to pay for a Windows License with every PC they sold. Buying a PC without Windows meant buying parts and assembling it yourself. Wasn't too difficult, but you were SOL if you wanted a laptop.
- analog31 6y ago
  Yes and no. Name brand computers tended to come with Windows. But there was a printed monthly magazine called the Computer Shopper that had ads for mail-order stuff of every possible description, and you could buy a motherboard plus the rest of the pieces without Windows. Right about that time period, copy protection of the Windows CD's was altering the equation.
- jedberg 6y ago
  Yeah, most of the big online ordering sites (Dell, Gateway, etc) would only let you get a copy with Windows. It was a huge deal when Dell started letting you buy "naked" PCs.
sellyme 6y ago
> The windows EULA (End User License Agreement) clearly states that the agreement can be refused by the end user, and that windows can be returned to the manufacturer. In real life, however, manufacturers typically say that they can't refund the windows license and tell the user to contact microsoft directly. I can't say I really blame manufacturers for doing that [...] I can. If companies want to profit by being a middle-man between the OS developers and the consumer, then they also inherit the responsibility of actually dealing with said consumer. If Microsoft wants to be a pain in their arse and make it harder for them to actually fulfil their obligations as a merchant, maybe they should stop doing business deals with a company that's actively hostile to them. It's the same thing as tech stores that try to foist you over the the hardware manufacturer if you buy a faulty component from them. You don't get to put your fingers in the pie and then claim that you have no responsibility to ensure the quality of an item you're advertising and selling.
- harikb 6y ago
  > maybe they should stop doing business deals with a company that's actively hostile to them Remember, at one point they were considered a monopoly on PC operating systems. It is not like PC vendors had an option. Not signing on to the cartel was not an option.
  - fabianhjr 6y ago
    Anti-trust enforcement? At least back then it seemed like a possibility, nowadays seems inconceivable.
  - pydry 6y ago
    It's almost as if the OP is deliberately missing this point.
- young_unixer 6y ago
  That's what Amazon does. You buy things from their website and pay using their payment platform. The website doesn't make it obvious that you're actually buying from a third party ("sold by: X" is in small letters and gets lost between all the other details). And Amazon lump items from different vendors together in the same product page. I literally bought like 3 items on Amazon before realizing that not all items were sold by Amazon themselves. When it turns out that items are counterfeit, they try to offload a great part of their responsibility onto the legal system, because they see themselves as the victims of counterfeit, not as facilitators [1]. Luckily, some judges are not buying their excuse [2]. (Even if buy items "sold by Amazon", you can get a counterfeit product [3].) [1] https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/company-news/amazon-establishes-new-counterfeit-crimes-unit https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/company-news/amazon-establi... [2] https://californiaglobe.com/section-2/amazon-liable-for-defective-third-party-products-rules-ca-appelate-court/ https://californiaglobe.com/section-2/amazon-liable-for-defe... HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24174276 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24174276 [3] https://twitter.com/nostarch/status/1183095004258099202 https://twitter.com/nostarch/status/1183095004258099202
amanzi 6y ago
I love how the BBC and New York Times articles are still online and preserved in their original look and feel. http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/02/biztech/articles/16windows.html http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/02/biztech/articles/1... http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_279000/279926.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_279000/2799...
- shaunxcode 6y ago
  Wow nytimes.com looks drastically better than their current design.
  - kaszanka 6y ago
    That seems to be a common theme with websites. Not to mention how quickly it loads...
    - alliao 6y ago
      back then I was probably still on my brand spanking new awesome US Robotics 56k modem!
  - filmgirlcw 6y ago
    That’s an archived/print-formatted design. It isn’t how the actual website looked in 1999 (CSS and the DOM weren’t advanced enough for those kinds of layouts then), unfortunately.
    - cmeacham98 6y ago
      Regardless, I wish I could get this version of the website for current articles.
    - ddeck 6y ago
      It's an archive page, but that's pretty much what the website looked like in 1999: https://web.archive.org/web/20171230005844/http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/01/circuits/articles/28game.html https://web.archive.org/web/20171230005844/http://www.nytime... https://web.archive.org/web/19990209200635/http://www7.nytimes.com:80/ https://web.archive.org/web/19990209200635/http://www7.nytim...
davidw 6y ago
I didn't go to this, but I remember a number of those people and places.
ChuckMcM 6y ago
I was there too, although I didn't make it into any of the pictures AFAICT on the site. Everex computer (which was in Fremont) also refused to refund any money for "returning" the license code.
filmgirlcw 6y ago
I’m going to get downvoted into oblivion for this, but as a teenager who remembers when this happened, this always struck me as the absolute dumbest idea and the most useless of performative actions. First, it was sponsored by a VC-backed company (that had hired a documentary crew to capture their success, the ill-fated VA Linux Systems (which eventually became known as Geeknet) and the pretty poor propaganda documentary “Revolution OS” that managed to just sort of forget the whole dot com collapse thing)), so although I know the LUGs were part of it, this was a marketing event by a company looking to boost their IPO. I didn’t know any of that at the time, but looking back, it’s so clear this was just yet another VA Linux publicity event. Second, to anyone who wasn’t part of the group “protesting” — that is, outsiders — all you see is a bunch of weirdos dressed up with picket signs outside a sales office (they didn’t even go to Redmond) to demand action, only to be greeted what seem to be very polite corporate people with a sign and lemonade. Third, it fundamentally changed nothing. It took the DoJ agreements to lessen the hold Microsoft had one some OEMs, but it really took the proliferation of Chromebooks (which was predicated by the short-lived netbook era) for manufacturers to get cheaper deals on Windows licenses and to offer more customizations of OS choice at purchase. That still had zero impact on Linux on the desktop adoption rates. And sure, most bigger OEMs if you buy direct will let you customize a machine with no OS and sometimes with Ubuntu, but the Ubuntu XPS 13 isn’t much cheaper than the Windows variant (max $50), you just get more of an assurance that there is some sort of driver support for your system (although usually not for stuff like fingerprint readers). So like, all I remember is that 21 years ago, some angry nerds showed up to an office park parking lot, got some free lemonade, were told politely to leave, and then went home with their cardboard signs screaming victory. When they didn’t get a refund. Didn’t change OEM terms, and had zero impact on OS adoption. OS adoption changed over the years but it wasn’t because of anything any of the people in that movement did, it was because of Apple and Google.
- zeruch 6y ago
  You won't get downvoted, but you make a few factually questionable statements (disclosure: I worked at VA from 1998 to 2002): 1. VA didn't sponsor the event, but a chunk of the staff of the company's Sunnyvale HQ attended (and most of us were in the LUGs). VA didn't have any need at that stage to boost the IPO, as the fever was already brewing for companies like VA and Red Hat (both IPO'd that year, RH in August and VA in December). 2. VA didn't hire a camera crew either, but a friend of one of the executive staff (Jon Hall) wanted to do a story about Open Source, so Jon brought him in for a few days to do interviews and film around the office (do I think the exec staff saw the PR upside? Sure. If they hadn't they would have been foolish. But they weren't the primary driver). And IIRC, Rev OS forgot the dot com collapse because it was edited and released right before the collapse began. 3. Do I think the event was performative nonsense? Sure. I thought it was then too, much as I thought RMS was ludicrous and various other "open source luminaries" were a tad too close to 'hubris based lifeform' but the event, in the grand scheme of things, was an amusing, if ultimately pointless exercise. Not all things need to induce a sea change or have a deeper point than getting like minded folks to make a statement for its own sake.
beervirus 6y ago
This is the cringiest thing I’ve read in weeks.
- chihuahua 6y ago
  You can tell how angry and righteous the author felt because they steadfastly spell "Microsoft" and "Windows" in lowercase. That said, I don't blame them for being angry about having to pay for an OS license they don't want. I'd be angry too if I bought an Intel NUC and $50 of the price went to Apple for a MacOS license.
devdiary 6y ago
That's an interesting story. Thanks for sharing
cfeduke 6y ago
The link for the Tux from linuxmall-dot-com still works, except their cart does not. The front page is full of... well what was cutting edge amateur tech around that time. What I want to know is: who has been paying for hosting for linuxmall-dot-com for two+ decades?
Cyder 6y ago
Long live Lindows! /s
- desktopninja 6y ago
  You bring back fond memories of the Lindows Rock song :D
jhatemyjob 6y ago
Those pictures make me nostalgic for the 1998-2008 era. Back when 99% of people didn't have a camera in their pocket. Having a camera/camcorder at a convention or event like this was so much different.
- quickthrower2 6y ago
  Not only that - Linux fanatics looking geeky, long hair, penguins. Now they look normal, where AWS t-shirts and get enough TC to retire at 30 having helped Bezos get more power.
mdoms 6y ago
Every Linux guy looks like you would expect a Linux guy to look.
- teddyh 6y ago
  You mean how you would expect a Linux person to look. Others have a more nuanced and open-minded worldview.
- 3131s 6y ago
  What's that supposed to mean. How do you think I look?
noisy_boy 6y ago
Windows is insurance. I love Linux and exclusively (at home) use it daily. I love the idea of open source and the unmatched flexibility that comes with it - I can customize my desktop to match my workflow to the nth degree. However, sometimes (very rarely now a days), stuff breaks and when I absolutely cannot afford to spend 30 mins troubleshooting, I reboot into Windows and basically get the job done. I do get back into Linux once the time-bound crisis is over and fix the problem, but I don't delete the Windows partition. Because Windows is insurance.
- qqii 6y ago
  Since you enjoy tinkering with linux have you considered trying Fedora Silverblue/NixOS/Guix or the like? It's quite a steep learning curve but almost guarentees that you're never left in a bad state of configuration. I'm of a similar mindset and in my period of using Windows as a daily driver I concluded that neither Windows or Linux was that much more unstable but it is my tinkering that causes 99% of my own problems.
  - noisy_boy 6y ago
    I did explore installing Fedora but found its installer confusing compared to Ubuntu's installer so ended up just using Pop!_OS (which is based on Ubuntu so uses the same installer).
- tinus_hn 6y ago
  You must have the golden Windows installation that never breaks itself! Be careful with it!
  - noisy_boy 6y ago
    Well, it doesn't break because Linux is where I spend the lion's share of my time. So the Windows setup basically just stays almost unchanged (I'm quite careful with the software updates on Windows so that also helps).
- globular-toast 6y ago
curveship 6y ago
Check out the local TV interview of "Eric Ramen" :D : http://marc.merlins.org/linux/refundday/videos/abc.mpg http://marc.merlins.org/linux/refundday/videos/abc.mpg
f430 6y ago
I don't agree with them but I really miss the innocence, novelty of the internet, the spirit of the 90s that these photos and their protest represents. Nobody screaming with phones out filming each other, hive mind duking it out on Twitter with memes or Youtubers "exposing" each other, etc.
gillytech 6y ago
I'm surprised that after all these years and even with a request to point out typos in the end, this misspelling has survived: "...manufacturers would truely refund people..."
- stordoff 6y ago
  And "reporters, from several magasines".
  - schoen 6y ago
    By the way, Marc Merlin is a native speaker of French so I suspect these are non-native English typos (e.g. French "magasin").
peter_retief 6y ago
I tried to return a MS development kit in about 2000, took it back to the vendor and said I never accepted the license and wanted a full refund. They laughed at me.
thayne 6y ago
This is one reason why I build my own desktop. Not do I not have to worry about paying for an OS I don't want, but I can make sure all the components work well with that OS. Unfortunately laptops are a whole other problem. Sure there are a few laptops that you can get with Linux pre-installed. And a few more you can get without an OS installed, but the options are pretty limited. And building your own laptop from parts is a lot more difficult.
divbzero 6y ago
It’s curious how the webpage includes a changelog in the footer. Wonder what the web would look like if built from the ground up to be versioned in this manner.
dirktheman 6y ago
How is it that when I look at pictures from the 1990s they look... dated, I guess? But it doesn't feel that long ago!
- epse 6y ago
  It's the look of cheaper photo film which was then digitised (scanned?) I suppose
mrweasel 6y ago
In the end I do believe that some people where able to get their money back. I remember Paul-Henning Kamp (FreeBSD developer) going to court in Denmark. The court agree that you should be able to get your money back, if you didn't want Windows and didn't understand that Windows would be part of the deal. Because PHK understood that a copy of Windows would be included with his laptop, he could NOT get a refund. So you'd have to be an unsophisticated user, who wanted to install an alternative operating system, so basically "No One". The way Microsoft dealt with the whole thing though me that they don't really care about their EULA. It's not actually enforceable or relevant to their business. If it where, not paying the refund, or forcing the OEM to seems like a way to give anyone who truly wish to violate the EULA a legal entry point. Still, the OEM licenses was/is not worth much, and most of us knew that. You could buy a Windows 98 license for something like $30, you just had to get it with a mouse, because then it would technically have been bought with hardware. Even if the mouse was only $10, you have to assume that the real OEM where getting even better deals.
mleonhard 6y ago
I read this and remembered how much I used to^W^W hate Microsoft. Microsoft intentionally did not fix the virus vectors in their software. They could have easily stopped 99% of viruses with these steps: 1. Make Windows ignore autorun.ini on writable media. -- When a user double-clicks on a drive that has a hidden autorun.ini file, Windows executes the binary referenced in the file. This is how most Windows viruses spread. 2. Disable automatic execution of scripts in Microsoft Office documents. -- Microsoft Office supported normal documents (DOC & XLS) and template files that can contain scripts (DOT & XLT). One could rename a .DOT file to a .DOC and MS Word would open like a .DOC file, and then silently execute the macros contained in it. This is how most Microsoft Office viruses spread. Since most users never use macros, Microsoft could have easily disabled the function by default and provided a config option to enable it. Additionally, Office could refuse to open template files that have a non-template file extension. And finally, it could prompt or simply refuse to execute macros from removable media. 3. Require PC makers to turn off the floppy boot option on new PCs. -- Nearly all PCs were sold with their BIOS settings configured to automatically boot from the floppy drive if one is present and has the right boot data on it. If someone turned their computer on while an infected floppy was in the drive, their computer would get the virus. Microsoft could have easily required PC makers to turn off the floppy boot option on new PCs. This would make the computers start up faster and stop an entire class of viruses. Microsoft could have gone further and made Windows refuse to start after booting from a floppy. Users would quickly develop the habit of removing floppies before turning on their computers. But Microsoft made a lot of extra money because of viruses. When a person's computer got viruses, it would slow down or corrupt files. Many folks would go out and buy a new computer, paying for new licenses of Windows and Office. Viruses harmed so many businesses in the developing world, keeping poor countries poor. I lived in Ghana when I was a teenager. I did some PC technician work and saw the impact of Microsoft viruses first-hand. Microsoft really cheated the World out of a lot of economic growth and quality of life. The IT media (PC Magazine, PC World, etc) turned a blind eye to it. They didn't have the integrity to go against their big ad buyers, the anti-virus companies. Nobody with an audience would hold Microsoft accountable. Back then it was Microsoft; now it's Google & Facebook. Companies continue to exploit because US social structure has not progressed.
- Macha 6y ago
jimnotgym 6y ago
Needs a [1999] Just for balance, what Apple computers or Chromebooks are available without an os?
- mnd999 6y ago
  Given Apple make both the computer and MacOS it's not quite the same thing. Chromebooks from 3rd party manufacturers, sure.
globular-toast 6y ago
It was fun to be a geek back then. Now geeks are "cool" and rich and only really care about money.
teekert 6y ago
In 2006-sih I tried to get Windows removed from my Sony Vaio. They could do it, if I sent the laptop back to the webshop, paying for it myself. There was no money to be returned to me. I think the situation is complex, perhaps Sony paid MS for Windows (XP mediacenter), but they made money on the Norton Trial software, the trailer for movies on my desktop, and ah lot of other cruft that was not really in my interest.
greatgib 6y ago
Crazy to realize the long path we did, from being unable to buy any laptop at all without a Windows license to being able to buy computers directly shipped with Linux, and even open hardware. I guess that for younger people, it might be hard to remember the "good old time" when we were fighting for reimbursement of the license. One time, I did the process to try to get reimbursed for one laptop in France. At that time, there was a lot of uncertainty and no clearly defined process, but it was clear that the French law was on our side. In the doubt, I did it all: registered letters to HP and to the retailer. I think that in theory it was supposed to be HP that should reimbursed me, but I think that they never replied to me. On the other side, I received a reimbursement from the retailer in a kind of "nice unofficial way": << We think that we are not responsible to do that, but here is a 100 francs reimbursement so that you will stop annoying us>> (So it was not really needed that I burned/shred my Windows license or anything else)
- gambiting 6y ago
  Well, at least now in the EU it's completely 1000% legal for you to take that licence and sell it on if you wish. There have been several court cases specifically about re-selling OEM software licences and all of them have been lost by Microsoft. As a customer in the EU you have a very explicit right ot sell licences for any and all software you own, even if it was bundled with a pre-built machine.
rbanffy 6y ago
I love how, now, I can just order a Dell or Lenovo and just ask for "no OS installed". I wish getting an ANSI keyboard were that easy around here (Ireland)
- egeek 6y ago
  Have you tried reaching out to Dell on the chat? We buy the Precision laptops in Switzerland, and there's a number of keyboard options (including US)[0]. I checked Dell UK for a similar device [1] but they only have German, UK or French listed. [0] - https://www.dell.com/de-ch/work/shop/notebooks/neu-xps-15/spd/xps-15-9500-laptop/bnx9511#features_section https://www.dell.com/de-ch/work/shop/notebooks/neu-xps-15/sp... [1] - https://www.dell.com/en-uk/work/shop/laptop-computers-for-businesses/precision-5550/spd/precision-15-5550-laptop/n001p5550emea_vi#features_section https://www.dell.com/en-uk/work/shop/laptop-computers-for-bu... (edited for formatting of references)
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    Dell is easier - they have options for most models. Lenovo only offers them on the Thinkpad line.
anthony_r 6y ago
I tried doing that sometime in mid or maybe late 2000's. The manufacturer said I'd have to return the hard disk (on which the system was technically installed, on some shadow partition) and pay for the replacement cost of the disk with an amount that's surprisingly close to the cost of the license that would be returned to me (netting me ~0). Being a teenager I just stopped there.
gscott 6y ago
Years ago Microsoft had some sort of Internet access plan monthly and you received a free computer. A court nullified it and I was able to keep the eMachine computer for free. I can't remember the specifics but I had at least two free computers from it.

370 points by ransom_rs 6y ago

chovybizzass 6y ago

nothing has changed.

ogre_codes 6y ago
A lot has changed. No thanks to Microsoft, but a lot has changed. Drivers are much better now and many large companies supply their own drivers (though frustratingly often as binaries). Some companies like Dell offer Linux specific SKUs with somewhat tuned drivers. There are companies making Linux first desktops. Linux first servers are extremely common. There is a lot of hardware not just shipping with Linux but designed for Linux first. It's a world better now than it was in the mid-late 90s.
- shmerl 6y ago
  I think it was meant in regards to refunding the Windowx tax or buying computers with Linux preinstalled universally. Some like Lenovo were giving customers very hard time in getting a refund. And only very recently they started offering Linux preinstalled on some of their models for regular users. Some things like you mentioned above are of course much better today. But Windows tax situation is still a mess.
  - bostonsre 6y ago
    Yea, would have to say there's a lot more options now. It kind of seems like an elephant in the room, so want to call it out.... Is windows better or worse than macs/osx with Linux hostility? To me, it seems like Microsoft is less bad than Apple in this regard.
    - shmerl 6y ago
      In regards to lock-in, both MS and Apple can be quite irritating (DirectX / Metal instead of backing Vulkan are glaring examples). But Apple seems to be worse overall, they are more like MS from the '90s in their lock-in obsession. MS did some positive things recently. Like freed up exfat for Linux to use. But when it comes to gaming for example, MS are still pretty unfriendly in their old ways.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      > Is windows better or worse than macs/osx with Linux hostility? To me, it seems like Microsoft is less bad than Apple in this regard. I'm not sure what you mean. Personally I like the Mac because it lets me run Unix stuff in a no BS way from the command line. It also runs Docker fine (haven't tried it on the M1). It doesn't have something like WSL, but it doesn't really need it because you can compile most things for the MacOS command line. Windows needs to run Linux well because it isn't Unix. The Mac is BSD Unix.
      - nly 6y ago
        The docker experience on Linux is vastly superior to that on Windows or macOS though
      - bostonsre 6y ago
        I mean that you can't buy a computer with mac hardware and linux os. Microsoft isn't forcing hardware vendors to only use windows. Osx unix is still vastly different from most production environments. I really like wsl because I can use whatever linux os that I'm comfortable with and have access to a wide range of supported apps on windows. It seems really elegant to me and its not just running a linux vm on windows like most assume. The integration between wsl and windows is pretty neat. e.g. this is in my .bashrc in wsl, it copies output to my windows clipboard (and note that its a windows exe that im invoking from wsl). function cb () { powershell.exe -command "\$input | set-clipboard" }
        ogre_codes 6y ago
        I’m still not following you here. I’ve done Django on MacOS, run Kubernetes Klusters, done Java Spring, Ruby, MySQL, Postgresql, MongoDB, Express.js, Koa, etc etc etc. The MacOS shell is different from production Linux. So is WSL, so is whatever version of Linux you are running at home. If you want to mirror a product environment perfectly, you use Docker. Otherwise, most people aren’t going to see big differences.

schoen 6y ago

Hey, I was there! I'm the one in the jean jacket, and the plastic penguins that people are holding up were mine (and I still have them!). Edit: I also still have my copy of the form letter that Microsoft handed out to us, which I transcribed at http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/dear-valued-customer.html http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/dear-valued-customer.html

pfarrell 6y ago
Thanks for sharing. I’m not a Microsoft apologist, but that “Dear Valued Customer” is a clever, corporatey middle finger. I’d have been so pissed :)
ncmncm 6y ago
Is that you Seth?
- schoen 6y ago
  Sure enough!
Ayesh 6y ago
Wow this letter is brutal!

sevensor 6y ago

His appearance at this event must have been just about peak ESR. I've been following his long slow slide into crank-dom on his blog, at least up until its stop last fall. I wonder what he's up to now.

1shooner 6y ago

I was still on the family G3 in 1999, was it difficult to buy a PC without Windows at the time?

ogre_codes 6y ago
Microsoft had contracts with all of the OEMs, if an OEM wanted Microsoft's OEM pricing, they needed to pay for a Windows License with every PC they sold. Buying a PC without Windows meant buying parts and assembling it yourself. Wasn't too difficult, but you were SOL if you wanted a laptop.
analog31 6y ago
Yes and no. Name brand computers tended to come with Windows. But there was a printed monthly magazine called the Computer Shopper that had ads for mail-order stuff of every possible description, and you could buy a motherboard plus the rest of the pieces without Windows. Right about that time period, copy protection of the Windows CD's was altering the equation.
jedberg 6y ago
Yeah, most of the big online ordering sites (Dell, Gateway, etc) would only let you get a copy with Windows. It was a huge deal when Dell started letting you buy "naked" PCs.

sellyme 6y ago

> The windows EULA (End User License Agreement) clearly states that the agreement can be refused by the end user, and that windows can be returned to the manufacturer. In real life, however, manufacturers typically say that they can't refund the windows license and tell the user to contact microsoft directly. I can't say I really blame manufacturers for doing that [...] I can. If companies want to profit by being a middle-man between the OS developers and the consumer, then they also inherit the responsibility of actually dealing with said consumer. If Microsoft wants to be a pain in their arse and make it harder for them to actually fulfil their obligations as a merchant, maybe they should stop doing business deals with a company that's actively hostile to them. It's the same thing as tech stores that try to foist you over the the hardware manufacturer if you buy a faulty component from them. You don't get to put your fingers in the pie and then claim that you have no responsibility to ensure the quality of an item you're advertising and selling.

harikb 6y ago
> maybe they should stop doing business deals with a company that's actively hostile to them Remember, at one point they were considered a monopoly on PC operating systems. It is not like PC vendors had an option. Not signing on to the cartel was not an option.
- fabianhjr 6y ago
  Anti-trust enforcement? At least back then it seemed like a possibility, nowadays seems inconceivable.
- pydry 6y ago
  It's almost as if the OP is deliberately missing this point.
young_unixer 6y ago
That's what Amazon does. You buy things from their website and pay using their payment platform. The website doesn't make it obvious that you're actually buying from a third party ("sold by: X" is in small letters and gets lost between all the other details). And Amazon lump items from different vendors together in the same product page. I literally bought like 3 items on Amazon before realizing that not all items were sold by Amazon themselves. When it turns out that items are counterfeit, they try to offload a great part of their responsibility onto the legal system, because they see themselves as the victims of counterfeit, not as facilitators [1]. Luckily, some judges are not buying their excuse [2]. (Even if buy items "sold by Amazon", you can get a counterfeit product [3].) [1] https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/company-news/amazon-establishes-new-counterfeit-crimes-unit https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/company-news/amazon-establi... [2] https://californiaglobe.com/section-2/amazon-liable-for-defective-third-party-products-rules-ca-appelate-court/ https://californiaglobe.com/section-2/amazon-liable-for-defe... HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24174276 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24174276 [3] https://twitter.com/nostarch/status/1183095004258099202 https://twitter.com/nostarch/status/1183095004258099202

amanzi 6y ago

I love how the BBC and New York Times articles are still online and preserved in their original look and feel. http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/02/biztech/articles/16windows.html http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/02/biztech/articles/1... http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_279000/279926.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_279000/2799...

shaunxcode 6y ago
Wow nytimes.com looks drastically better than their current design.
- kaszanka 6y ago
  That seems to be a common theme with websites. Not to mention how quickly it loads...
  - alliao 6y ago
    back then I was probably still on my brand spanking new awesome US Robotics 56k modem!
- filmgirlcw 6y ago
  That’s an archived/print-formatted design. It isn’t how the actual website looked in 1999 (CSS and the DOM weren’t advanced enough for those kinds of layouts then), unfortunately.
  - cmeacham98 6y ago
    Regardless, I wish I could get this version of the website for current articles.
  - ddeck 6y ago
    It's an archive page, but that's pretty much what the website looked like in 1999: https://web.archive.org/web/20171230005844/http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/01/circuits/articles/28game.html https://web.archive.org/web/20171230005844/http://www.nytime... https://web.archive.org/web/19990209200635/http://www7.nytimes.com:80/ https://web.archive.org/web/19990209200635/http://www7.nytim...

davidw 6y ago

I didn't go to this, but I remember a number of those people and places.

ChuckMcM 6y ago

I was there too, although I didn't make it into any of the pictures AFAICT on the site. Everex computer (which was in Fremont) also refused to refund any money for "returning" the license code.

filmgirlcw 6y ago

I’m going to get downvoted into oblivion for this, but as a teenager who remembers when this happened, this always struck me as the absolute dumbest idea and the most useless of performative actions. First, it was sponsored by a VC-backed company (that had hired a documentary crew to capture their success, the ill-fated VA Linux Systems (which eventually became known as Geeknet) and the pretty poor propaganda documentary “Revolution OS” that managed to just sort of forget the whole dot com collapse thing)), so although I know the LUGs were part of it, this was a marketing event by a company looking to boost their IPO. I didn’t know any of that at the time, but looking back, it’s so clear this was just yet another VA Linux publicity event. Second, to anyone who wasn’t part of the group “protesting” — that is, outsiders — all you see is a bunch of weirdos dressed up with picket signs outside a sales office (they didn’t even go to Redmond) to demand action, only to be greeted what seem to be very polite corporate people with a sign and lemonade. Third, it fundamentally changed nothing. It took the DoJ agreements to lessen the hold Microsoft had one some OEMs, but it really took the proliferation of Chromebooks (which was predicated by the short-lived netbook era) for manufacturers to get cheaper deals on Windows licenses and to offer more customizations of OS choice at purchase. That still had zero impact on Linux on the desktop adoption rates. And sure, most bigger OEMs if you buy direct will let you customize a machine with no OS and sometimes with Ubuntu, but the Ubuntu XPS 13 isn’t much cheaper than the Windows variant (max $50), you just get more of an assurance that there is some sort of driver support for your system (although usually not for stuff like fingerprint readers). So like, all I remember is that 21 years ago, some angry nerds showed up to an office park parking lot, got some free lemonade, were told politely to leave, and then went home with their cardboard signs screaming victory. When they didn’t get a refund. Didn’t change OEM terms, and had zero impact on OS adoption. OS adoption changed over the years but it wasn’t because of anything any of the people in that movement did, it was because of Apple and Google.

zeruch 6y ago
You won't get downvoted, but you make a few factually questionable statements (disclosure: I worked at VA from 1998 to 2002): 1. VA didn't sponsor the event, but a chunk of the staff of the company's Sunnyvale HQ attended (and most of us were in the LUGs). VA didn't have any need at that stage to boost the IPO, as the fever was already brewing for companies like VA and Red Hat (both IPO'd that year, RH in August and VA in December). 2. VA didn't hire a camera crew either, but a friend of one of the executive staff (Jon Hall) wanted to do a story about Open Source, so Jon brought him in for a few days to do interviews and film around the office (do I think the exec staff saw the PR upside? Sure. If they hadn't they would have been foolish. But they weren't the primary driver). And IIRC, Rev OS forgot the dot com collapse because it was edited and released right before the collapse began. 3. Do I think the event was performative nonsense? Sure. I thought it was then too, much as I thought RMS was ludicrous and various other "open source luminaries" were a tad too close to 'hubris based lifeform' but the event, in the grand scheme of things, was an amusing, if ultimately pointless exercise. Not all things need to induce a sea change or have a deeper point than getting like minded folks to make a statement for its own sake.

beervirus 6y ago

This is the cringiest thing I’ve read in weeks.

chihuahua 6y ago
You can tell how angry and righteous the author felt because they steadfastly spell "Microsoft" and "Windows" in lowercase. That said, I don't blame them for being angry about having to pay for an OS license they don't want. I'd be angry too if I bought an Intel NUC and $50 of the price went to Apple for a MacOS license.

devdiary 6y ago

That's an interesting story. Thanks for sharing

cfeduke 6y ago

The link for the Tux from linuxmall-dot-com still works, except their cart does not. The front page is full of... well what was cutting edge amateur tech around that time. What I want to know is: who has been paying for hosting for linuxmall-dot-com for two+ decades?

Cyder 6y ago

Long live Lindows! /s

desktopninja 6y ago
You bring back fond memories of the Lindows Rock song :D

jhatemyjob 6y ago

Those pictures make me nostalgic for the 1998-2008 era. Back when 99% of people didn't have a camera in their pocket. Having a camera/camcorder at a convention or event like this was so much different.

quickthrower2 6y ago
Not only that - Linux fanatics looking geeky, long hair, penguins. Now they look normal, where AWS t-shirts and get enough TC to retire at 30 having helped Bezos get more power.

mdoms 6y ago

Every Linux guy looks like you would expect a Linux guy to look.

teddyh 6y ago
You mean how you would expect a Linux person to look. Others have a more nuanced and open-minded worldview.
3131s 6y ago
What's that supposed to mean. How do you think I look?

noisy_boy 6y ago

Windows is insurance. I love Linux and exclusively (at home) use it daily. I love the idea of open source and the unmatched flexibility that comes with it - I can customize my desktop to match my workflow to the nth degree. However, sometimes (very rarely now a days), stuff breaks and when I absolutely cannot afford to spend 30 mins troubleshooting, I reboot into Windows and basically get the job done. I do get back into Linux once the time-bound crisis is over and fix the problem, but I don't delete the Windows partition. Because Windows is insurance.

qqii 6y ago
Since you enjoy tinkering with linux have you considered trying Fedora Silverblue/NixOS/Guix or the like? It's quite a steep learning curve but almost guarentees that you're never left in a bad state of configuration. I'm of a similar mindset and in my period of using Windows as a daily driver I concluded that neither Windows or Linux was that much more unstable but it is my tinkering that causes 99% of my own problems.
- noisy_boy 6y ago
  I did explore installing Fedora but found its installer confusing compared to Ubuntu's installer so ended up just using Pop!_OS (which is based on Ubuntu so uses the same installer).
tinus_hn 6y ago
You must have the golden Windows installation that never breaks itself! Be careful with it!
- noisy_boy 6y ago
  Well, it doesn't break because Linux is where I spend the lion's share of my time. So the Windows setup basically just stays almost unchanged (I'm quite careful with the software updates on Windows so that also helps).
globular-toast 6y ago

curveship 6y ago

Check out the local TV interview of "Eric Ramen" :D : http://marc.merlins.org/linux/refundday/videos/abc.mpg http://marc.merlins.org/linux/refundday/videos/abc.mpg

f430 6y ago

I don't agree with them but I really miss the innocence, novelty of the internet, the spirit of the 90s that these photos and their protest represents. Nobody screaming with phones out filming each other, hive mind duking it out on Twitter with memes or Youtubers "exposing" each other, etc.

gillytech 6y ago

I'm surprised that after all these years and even with a request to point out typos in the end, this misspelling has survived: "...manufacturers would truely refund people..."

stordoff 6y ago
And "reporters, from several magasines".
- schoen 6y ago
  By the way, Marc Merlin is a native speaker of French so I suspect these are non-native English typos (e.g. French "magasin").

peter_retief 6y ago

I tried to return a MS development kit in about 2000, took it back to the vendor and said I never accepted the license and wanted a full refund. They laughed at me.

thayne 6y ago

This is one reason why I build my own desktop. Not do I not have to worry about paying for an OS I don't want, but I can make sure all the components work well with that OS. Unfortunately laptops are a whole other problem. Sure there are a few laptops that you can get with Linux pre-installed. And a few more you can get without an OS installed, but the options are pretty limited. And building your own laptop from parts is a lot more difficult.

divbzero 6y ago

It’s curious how the webpage includes a changelog in the footer. Wonder what the web would look like if built from the ground up to be versioned in this manner.

dirktheman 6y ago

How is it that when I look at pictures from the 1990s they look... dated, I guess? But it doesn't feel that long ago!

epse 6y ago
It's the look of cheaper photo film which was then digitised (scanned?) I suppose

mrweasel 6y ago

In the end I do believe that some people where able to get their money back. I remember Paul-Henning Kamp (FreeBSD developer) going to court in Denmark. The court agree that you should be able to get your money back, if you didn't want Windows and didn't understand that Windows would be part of the deal. Because PHK understood that a copy of Windows would be included with his laptop, he could NOT get a refund. So you'd have to be an unsophisticated user, who wanted to install an alternative operating system, so basically "No One". The way Microsoft dealt with the whole thing though me that they don't really care about their EULA. It's not actually enforceable or relevant to their business. If it where, not paying the refund, or forcing the OEM to seems like a way to give anyone who truly wish to violate the EULA a legal entry point. Still, the OEM licenses was/is not worth much, and most of us knew that. You could buy a Windows 98 license for something like $30, you just had to get it with a mouse, because then it would technically have been bought with hardware. Even if the mouse was only $10, you have to assume that the real OEM where getting even better deals.

mleonhard 6y ago

I read this and remembered how much I used to^W^W hate Microsoft. Microsoft intentionally did not fix the virus vectors in their software. They could have easily stopped 99% of viruses with these steps: 1. Make Windows ignore autorun.ini on writable media. -- When a user double-clicks on a drive that has a hidden autorun.ini file, Windows executes the binary referenced in the file. This is how most Windows viruses spread. 2. Disable automatic execution of scripts in Microsoft Office documents. -- Microsoft Office supported normal documents (DOC & XLS) and template files that can contain scripts (DOT & XLT). One could rename a .DOT file to a .DOC and MS Word would open like a .DOC file, and then silently execute the macros contained in it. This is how most Microsoft Office viruses spread. Since most users never use macros, Microsoft could have easily disabled the function by default and provided a config option to enable it. Additionally, Office could refuse to open template files that have a non-template file extension. And finally, it could prompt or simply refuse to execute macros from removable media. 3. Require PC makers to turn off the floppy boot option on new PCs. -- Nearly all PCs were sold with their BIOS settings configured to automatically boot from the floppy drive if one is present and has the right boot data on it. If someone turned their computer on while an infected floppy was in the drive, their computer would get the virus. Microsoft could have easily required PC makers to turn off the floppy boot option on new PCs. This would make the computers start up faster and stop an entire class of viruses. Microsoft could have gone further and made Windows refuse to start after booting from a floppy. Users would quickly develop the habit of removing floppies before turning on their computers. But Microsoft made a lot of extra money because of viruses. When a person's computer got viruses, it would slow down or corrupt files. Many folks would go out and buy a new computer, paying for new licenses of Windows and Office. Viruses harmed so many businesses in the developing world, keeping poor countries poor. I lived in Ghana when I was a teenager. I did some PC technician work and saw the impact of Microsoft viruses first-hand. Microsoft really cheated the World out of a lot of economic growth and quality of life. The IT media (PC Magazine, PC World, etc) turned a blind eye to it. They didn't have the integrity to go against their big ad buyers, the anti-virus companies. Nobody with an audience would hold Microsoft accountable. Back then it was Microsoft; now it's Google & Facebook. Companies continue to exploit because US social structure has not progressed.

Macha 6y ago

jimnotgym 6y ago

Needs a [1999] Just for balance, what Apple computers or Chromebooks are available without an os?

mnd999 6y ago
Given Apple make both the computer and MacOS it's not quite the same thing. Chromebooks from 3rd party manufacturers, sure.

globular-toast 6y ago

It was fun to be a geek back then. Now geeks are "cool" and rich and only really care about money.

teekert 6y ago

In 2006-sih I tried to get Windows removed from my Sony Vaio. They could do it, if I sent the laptop back to the webshop, paying for it myself. There was no money to be returned to me. I think the situation is complex, perhaps Sony paid MS for Windows (XP mediacenter), but they made money on the Norton Trial software, the trailer for movies on my desktop, and ah lot of other cruft that was not really in my interest.

greatgib 6y ago

Crazy to realize the long path we did, from being unable to buy any laptop at all without a Windows license to being able to buy computers directly shipped with Linux, and even open hardware. I guess that for younger people, it might be hard to remember the "good old time" when we were fighting for reimbursement of the license. One time, I did the process to try to get reimbursed for one laptop in France. At that time, there was a lot of uncertainty and no clearly defined process, but it was clear that the French law was on our side. In the doubt, I did it all: registered letters to HP and to the retailer. I think that in theory it was supposed to be HP that should reimbursed me, but I think that they never replied to me. On the other side, I received a reimbursement from the retailer in a kind of "nice unofficial way": << We think that we are not responsible to do that, but here is a 100 francs reimbursement so that you will stop annoying us>> (So it was not really needed that I burned/shred my Windows license or anything else)

gambiting 6y ago
Well, at least now in the EU it's completely 1000% legal for you to take that licence and sell it on if you wish. There have been several court cases specifically about re-selling OEM software licences and all of them have been lost by Microsoft. As a customer in the EU you have a very explicit right ot sell licences for any and all software you own, even if it was bundled with a pre-built machine.

rbanffy 6y ago

I love how, now, I can just order a Dell or Lenovo and just ask for "no OS installed". I wish getting an ANSI keyboard were that easy around here (Ireland)

egeek 6y ago
Have you tried reaching out to Dell on the chat? We buy the Precision laptops in Switzerland, and there's a number of keyboard options (including US)[0]. I checked Dell UK for a similar device [1] but they only have German, UK or French listed. [0] - https://www.dell.com/de-ch/work/shop/notebooks/neu-xps-15/spd/xps-15-9500-laptop/bnx9511#features_section https://www.dell.com/de-ch/work/shop/notebooks/neu-xps-15/sp... [1] - https://www.dell.com/en-uk/work/shop/laptop-computers-for-businesses/precision-5550/spd/precision-15-5550-laptop/n001p5550emea_vi#features_section https://www.dell.com/en-uk/work/shop/laptop-computers-for-bu... (edited for formatting of references)
- rbanffy 6y ago
  Dell is easier - they have options for most models. Lenovo only offers them on the Thinkpad line.

anthony_r 6y ago

I tried doing that sometime in mid or maybe late 2000's. The manufacturer said I'd have to return the hard disk (on which the system was technically installed, on some shadow partition) and pay for the replacement cost of the disk with an amount that's surprisingly close to the cost of the license that would be returned to me (netting me ~0). Being a teenager I just stopped there.

gscott 6y ago

Years ago Microsoft had some sort of Internet access plan monthly and you received a free computer. A court nullified it and I was able to keep the eMachine computer for free. I can't remember the specifics but I had at least two free computers from it.