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After listening to his interview with Lex Fridman, I'm with Dr. Loeb on this one: Loeb's position is scientific. He's not saying he's certain that Oumuamua was

After listening to his interview with Lex Fridman, I'm with Dr. Loeb on this one: Loeb's position is scientific. He's not saying he's certain that Oumuamua was sent by aliens; it is a distinct possibility, with just enough evidence that we should take the possibility seriously, rather than ruling it out as the orthodox inquisitionists posing as scientists do.

XorNot 6y ago
As I keep saying everytime this topic comes up: resulting in what new experimentation, that is meaningfully distinct from what would be done normally?
- mynegation 6y ago
  Possible venues for experimentation and research: 1. Do we have or should we develop a technology to detect incoming bodies like that earlier? 2. Do we have or should we develop a propulsion technology and/or spacecraft that is able to intercept these bodies at some point in their trajectories and send back some useful information
  - jrowen 6y ago
    From the article: This is precisely why an agency like ESA is developing its Comet Interceptor Mission, to be ready to chase future interstellar visitors. This is basically the thesis of the article and the person you're responding to: the "orthodox inquisionists" are already doing this stuff, because they're not actually as close-minded as Loeb is making them out to be.
  - XorNot 6y ago
    We are doing both those things (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CA%BBOumuamua#Hypothetical_space_missions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CA%BBOumuamua#Hypothetical_sp...) We were doing those things before we even detected ʻOumuamua. Whether or not ʻOumuamua specifically is extraterrestrial - which is not worth considering based on weak evidence - didn't change anything. This is the problem: the evidence doesn't make the case, and "considering the possibility" doesn't lead anywhere interesting in terms of actual experimentation.
  - ThalesX 6y ago
    What a thought! Billions of billions of stars, with planets and civilizations, pushing technology to new heights, but ultimately realizing that the best way to leave your handprint on the galactic cave wall is a Universe-wide message in a bottle. I’m afraid we have more chances of making ourselves known by randomly throwing these bottles, than by answering back to where it came from.
    - ffhhj 6y ago
      Or it could be a civilization-in-a-bottle artifact with carefully programmed trajectory between several stars. If the message sender blew itself to nuclear ashes, its frozen siblings could have a new opportunity in a new system.
- lrossi 6y ago
  We could prepare better for similar occurrences. Such as funding better the astronomers and the labs so that we have instruments able to at least detect and take pictures of such objects, if not probe them. Not to mention the possibility of one hitting the earth, for which we are completely unprepared. Even if it’s just a rock and not an UFO. The main reason for having this debate is that we weren’t even capable of taking a good picture of it. The best thing we have is a white dot with varying brightness over time. We have no clue what it was and we probably will never know. The state of the tech we have would be understandable if it was 1990, but in 2021 it’s starting to look pathetic.
- xherberta 6y ago
  One that Loeb has mentioned: the status quo 10-year plan involves searching exoplanets for oxygen, which could arise without life, and which organisms would not necessarily need or produce. Instead, Loeb thinks we ought to look for industrial pollutants. A positive result on that would be extremely interesting.
imglorp 6y ago
Another apt religion metaphor: a deist insists there must be a god and an atheist insists there must not be. Neither position has any information or falsifiable claim. An agnostic admits ignorance until observations can be made.
- BrandoElFollito 6y ago
  It is just that there are no observations that would suggest any deity. Scientific ones that is, because we are talking rationality. So anything else than atheism is purely faith-based. Until the moment it does not incommodate me ona personal level (by teaching "equivalent theories" in schools, or forcing me to wear thisor that) I am fine with that.
  - yters 6y ago
    What do you think about intelligent design sort arguments? It is hard to understand how random variation and natural selection can produce the equivalent of a biological operating system. I have also a fair amount of experience with evolutionary algorithms, and they add to my perplexity as to how random variation and natural selection are sufficient mechanisms to produce the genome, let alone how the whole system would get started in the first place. This does seem to be a pretty good piece of scientific evidence for the intrusion of something entirely unlike any physical process we know of, and capable of feats only analogous to what human intelligence can produce. This seems to me a quite persuasive scientific argument for something deity-ish.
- XorNot 6y ago
  Presumably the agnostic is then worshipping Christianity, Islam and Judaism, as well as the entire Hindu pantheon, various African gods, the Rainbow Serpent... Claims for the defense of agnosticism always seem to be bizarrely certain about which god they can't be sure doesn't exist.
- dwaltrip 6y ago
  In practice, Deism is indistinguishable from atheism. Both claim that the laws of nature explain all observable phenomena.
kkoncevicius 6y ago
For me it went into the opposite direction after listening to 'omuamua is not aliens' video [1]. I think Dr. Loeb, contrary to what he says, is exploiting this a bit for some personal gain and fame. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wICOlaQOpM0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wICOlaQOpM0

XorNot 6y ago

As I keep saying everytime this topic comes up: resulting in what new experimentation, that is meaningfully distinct from what would be done normally?

mynegation 6y ago
Possible venues for experimentation and research: 1. Do we have or should we develop a technology to detect incoming bodies like that earlier? 2. Do we have or should we develop a propulsion technology and/or spacecraft that is able to intercept these bodies at some point in their trajectories and send back some useful information
- jrowen 6y ago
  From the article: This is precisely why an agency like ESA is developing its Comet Interceptor Mission, to be ready to chase future interstellar visitors. This is basically the thesis of the article and the person you're responding to: the "orthodox inquisionists" are already doing this stuff, because they're not actually as close-minded as Loeb is making them out to be.
- XorNot 6y ago
  We are doing both those things (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CA%BBOumuamua#Hypothetical_space_missions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CA%BBOumuamua#Hypothetical_sp...) We were doing those things before we even detected ʻOumuamua. Whether or not ʻOumuamua specifically is extraterrestrial - which is not worth considering based on weak evidence - didn't change anything. This is the problem: the evidence doesn't make the case, and "considering the possibility" doesn't lead anywhere interesting in terms of actual experimentation.
- ThalesX 6y ago
  What a thought! Billions of billions of stars, with planets and civilizations, pushing technology to new heights, but ultimately realizing that the best way to leave your handprint on the galactic cave wall is a Universe-wide message in a bottle. I’m afraid we have more chances of making ourselves known by randomly throwing these bottles, than by answering back to where it came from.
  - ffhhj 6y ago
    Or it could be a civilization-in-a-bottle artifact with carefully programmed trajectory between several stars. If the message sender blew itself to nuclear ashes, its frozen siblings could have a new opportunity in a new system.
lrossi 6y ago
We could prepare better for similar occurrences. Such as funding better the astronomers and the labs so that we have instruments able to at least detect and take pictures of such objects, if not probe them. Not to mention the possibility of one hitting the earth, for which we are completely unprepared. Even if it’s just a rock and not an UFO. The main reason for having this debate is that we weren’t even capable of taking a good picture of it. The best thing we have is a white dot with varying brightness over time. We have no clue what it was and we probably will never know. The state of the tech we have would be understandable if it was 1990, but in 2021 it’s starting to look pathetic.
xherberta 6y ago
One that Loeb has mentioned: the status quo 10-year plan involves searching exoplanets for oxygen, which could arise without life, and which organisms would not necessarily need or produce. Instead, Loeb thinks we ought to look for industrial pollutants. A positive result on that would be extremely interesting.

imglorp 6y ago

Another apt religion metaphor: a deist insists there must be a god and an atheist insists there must not be. Neither position has any information or falsifiable claim. An agnostic admits ignorance until observations can be made.

BrandoElFollito 6y ago
It is just that there are no observations that would suggest any deity. Scientific ones that is, because we are talking rationality. So anything else than atheism is purely faith-based. Until the moment it does not incommodate me ona personal level (by teaching "equivalent theories" in schools, or forcing me to wear thisor that) I am fine with that.
- yters 6y ago
  What do you think about intelligent design sort arguments? It is hard to understand how random variation and natural selection can produce the equivalent of a biological operating system. I have also a fair amount of experience with evolutionary algorithms, and they add to my perplexity as to how random variation and natural selection are sufficient mechanisms to produce the genome, let alone how the whole system would get started in the first place. This does seem to be a pretty good piece of scientific evidence for the intrusion of something entirely unlike any physical process we know of, and capable of feats only analogous to what human intelligence can produce. This seems to me a quite persuasive scientific argument for something deity-ish.
XorNot 6y ago
Presumably the agnostic is then worshipping Christianity, Islam and Judaism, as well as the entire Hindu pantheon, various African gods, the Rainbow Serpent... Claims for the defense of agnosticism always seem to be bizarrely certain about which god they can't be sure doesn't exist.
dwaltrip 6y ago
In practice, Deism is indistinguishable from atheism. Both claim that the laws of nature explain all observable phenomena.

kkoncevicius 6y ago

For me it went into the opposite direction after listening to 'omuamua is not aliens' video [1]. I think Dr. Loeb, contrary to what he says, is exploiting this a bit for some personal gain and fame. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wICOlaQOpM0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wICOlaQOpM0