4 ms·

It's odd that they recommend Signal, when their own chart shows that Element is the superior option.

atoav 6y ago
I would also recommend Signal over Element to everybody who is not a full blown techie (so most people I interact with in my daily life). This is because Element has some needlessly rough edges that even I as a battle-worn programmer/media tech person had a hard time with. Until this improves I cannot recommend it to friends unless I want to become "the guy that always recommends stuff that is impossible for normal people to understand".
- fartcannon 6y ago
  You struggled to make a user name and password? Did someone help you sign up to HN? Forgive me if I am doubtful.
  - bogwog 6y ago
    I would recommend signal simply because Element’s UX/UI and branding (which is more important than tech people usually admit) is bad. I’ve had the element app on my iPhone sitting unused for a long time, and sometimes I scroll by it and forget what it is. When I launch it, the first thing I see is a loading spinner thing on top of my chat rooms and contacts. What is it loading? I don’t know, and I probably don’t care enough to want to wait for it. Element is superior to Signal in technical aspects, but crappy in the parts that matter most for a social/chat application. Luckily, Signal is a decent alternative.
    - fartcannon 6y ago
      As you say, Element is superior technically and in my experience has a better UX/UI (simple sign up, no need for phone numbers, and straightforward chat app). I don't recommend Signal due to the, as you say, inferior technical aspects, the phone number dependency security issues, and the centralized single point of failure (recall the huge, day long outage they had a few weeks ago) I use Element as my primary chat application, across platforms like iOS, web and android, and I've never seen it load. I use it with friends, colleagues and with my 73 year old mum. Bonus points because it's in F-Droid, too! Basically, it's just great, in my opinion!
      - SecurityLagoon 6y ago
        It loads when you are in a large number of rooms and it has to pull and decrypt large amounts of backlog. But its really not that long.
  - atoav 6y ago
    You are really great at just assuming things it seems. Not so great at plain old reading tho. 1. You have no idea what my problems were (because I never said so), yet you still assumed I am stupid — something that tells more about you than about me. 2. I never said I didn't manage to use it. I said I cannot recommend it to my friends yet. In fact I use Element daily, which makes me confident in the judgment I communicated here. All in all you probably should form the habit of pausing for a moment before hitting the post button, let the emotions cool down and wonder whether you really understood the other person right or whether you fell victim to what you wanted to see.
    - fartcannon 6y ago
      Hey, I'd like to apologize for the tone that I took to your reply. I'm sorry. I hope I didn't cause you much grief.
      - atoav 6y ago
        No worries I am pretty stoic when it comes to such things, great to see you made the best of it. Gives me a little hope for humanity and it's experiment with the internet : )
j45 6y ago
Is it? Alternatives that the average person can adopt might be ranked in a different order. Protons customer base is likely people who want to be more secure.
- jimnotgym 6y ago
  ...but are not techie enough to want to set up PGP themselves. Therefore usability should be a concern.
contravariant 6y ago
Signal is the most similar to Whatsapp and easily the best alternative if you mostly just care about not replacing Facebook by a more trustworthy party. Element provides better privacy in theory but to get most out of it you'll need to set up your own server, which isn't for everyone. Otherwise it's really more of a question whether you trust the Signal foundation or any of the public Matrix instances.
- tialaramex 6y ago
  > to get most out of it you'll need to set up your own server, which isn't for everyone. This also destroys Don't Stand Out. Conspirators using Signal to plan don't stand out from people talking about their Buffy re-watch party, discussing what sort of fast food to order, complaining about their jobs... it's all just encrypted flows to and from Signal's servers. Whereas once you deploy your super secret server for a federated service you actually just flag all the users of that server for attention.
  - dpatterbee 6y ago
    I don't think that's entirely a dealbreaker. If all you want is a completely private homeserver then you can set one up and disable federation and if you want to not stand out then you can use the matrix.org homeserver and set up private chats on that.
    - tialaramex 6y ago
      The reason people recommend a private homeserver is that Matrix will end up knowing a bunch of metadata, so the thinking is we'll put the server on this Raspberry Pi in my spare room, now the Secret Police can't get it. With the Signal protocol this isn't a thing. Where metadata has to live on Signal's servers (e.g. "new-style" groups where you can have moderators) it's encrypted and the servers can do operations on the metadata without understanding what it means in a human sense. They go to considerable lengths to ensure they have no idea who their users are, who they talk to, or what about. With Matrix you have to choose, Stand Out by setting up the private server which may attract problems, or Don't Stand Out but give away your metadata to the big public servers and assume the Secret Police have it.

I would also recommend Signal over Element to everybody who is not a full blown techie (so most people I interact with in my daily life). This is because Element has some needlessly rough edges that even I as a battle-worn programmer/media tech person had a hard time with. Until this improves I cannot recommend it to friends unless I want to become "the guy that always recommends stuff that is impossible for normal people to understand".

fartcannon 6y ago
You struggled to make a user name and password? Did someone help you sign up to HN? Forgive me if I am doubtful.
- bogwog 6y ago
  I would recommend signal simply because Element’s UX/UI and branding (which is more important than tech people usually admit) is bad. I’ve had the element app on my iPhone sitting unused for a long time, and sometimes I scroll by it and forget what it is. When I launch it, the first thing I see is a loading spinner thing on top of my chat rooms and contacts. What is it loading? I don’t know, and I probably don’t care enough to want to wait for it. Element is superior to Signal in technical aspects, but crappy in the parts that matter most for a social/chat application. Luckily, Signal is a decent alternative.
  - fartcannon 6y ago
    As you say, Element is superior technically and in my experience has a better UX/UI (simple sign up, no need for phone numbers, and straightforward chat app). I don't recommend Signal due to the, as you say, inferior technical aspects, the phone number dependency security issues, and the centralized single point of failure (recall the huge, day long outage they had a few weeks ago) I use Element as my primary chat application, across platforms like iOS, web and android, and I've never seen it load. I use it with friends, colleagues and with my 73 year old mum. Bonus points because it's in F-Droid, too! Basically, it's just great, in my opinion!
    - SecurityLagoon 6y ago
      It loads when you are in a large number of rooms and it has to pull and decrypt large amounts of backlog. But its really not that long.
- atoav 6y ago
  You are really great at just assuming things it seems. Not so great at plain old reading tho. 1. You have no idea what my problems were (because I never said so), yet you still assumed I am stupid — something that tells more about you than about me. 2. I never said I didn't manage to use it. I said I cannot recommend it to my friends yet. In fact I use Element daily, which makes me confident in the judgment I communicated here. All in all you probably should form the habit of pausing for a moment before hitting the post button, let the emotions cool down and wonder whether you really understood the other person right or whether you fell victim to what you wanted to see.
  - fartcannon 6y ago
    Hey, I'd like to apologize for the tone that I took to your reply. I'm sorry. I hope I didn't cause you much grief.
    - atoav 6y ago
      No worries I am pretty stoic when it comes to such things, great to see you made the best of it. Gives me a little hope for humanity and it's experiment with the internet : )

j45 6y ago

Is it? Alternatives that the average person can adopt might be ranked in a different order. Protons customer base is likely people who want to be more secure.

jimnotgym 6y ago
...but are not techie enough to want to set up PGP themselves. Therefore usability should be a concern.

contravariant 6y ago

Signal is the most similar to Whatsapp and easily the best alternative if you mostly just care about not replacing Facebook by a more trustworthy party. Element provides better privacy in theory but to get most out of it you'll need to set up your own server, which isn't for everyone. Otherwise it's really more of a question whether you trust the Signal foundation or any of the public Matrix instances.

tialaramex 6y ago
> to get most out of it you'll need to set up your own server, which isn't for everyone. This also destroys Don't Stand Out. Conspirators using Signal to plan don't stand out from people talking about their Buffy re-watch party, discussing what sort of fast food to order, complaining about their jobs... it's all just encrypted flows to and from Signal's servers. Whereas once you deploy your super secret server for a federated service you actually just flag all the users of that server for attention.
- dpatterbee 6y ago
  I don't think that's entirely a dealbreaker. If all you want is a completely private homeserver then you can set one up and disable federation and if you want to not stand out then you can use the matrix.org homeserver and set up private chats on that.
  - tialaramex 6y ago
    The reason people recommend a private homeserver is that Matrix will end up knowing a bunch of metadata, so the thinking is we'll put the server on this Raspberry Pi in my spare room, now the Secret Police can't get it. With the Signal protocol this isn't a thing. Where metadata has to live on Signal's servers (e.g. "new-style" groups where you can have moderators) it's encrypted and the servers can do operations on the metadata without understanding what it means in a human sense. They go to considerable lengths to ensure they have no idea who their users are, who they talk to, or what about. With Matrix you have to choose, Stand Out by setting up the private server which may attract problems, or Don't Stand Out but give away your metadata to the big public servers and assume the Secret Police have it.