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The locked up energy used for mining was never available to populated area's in the first place, it is exces energy. It's a bit like if you compare taking a sho

by zyphr 6y ago

The locked up energy used for mining was never available to populated area's in the first place, it is exces energy. It's a bit like if you compare taking a shower in the middle of the desert with standing under a water fall and telling someone not to waste water while standing there because you consume as much water as 10000 people.

ForHackernews 6y ago
Says who? Bitcoin advocates always claim this, but never provide any compelling sources to back up this assertion. Can you not smelt aluminium in remote areas? Can you not perform hydrolysis to generate hydrogen? There are plenty of other good uses for electricity besides bitcoin or powering a city directly.
- mightybyte 6y ago
  If you smelt aluminium in a remote area you then have to move it to an area where it can be useful. Moving it consumes a lot of energy. If you mine a bitcoin near a power plant with excess capacity, anyone anywhere in the world with an internet connection can leverage that work for value transmission. This literally allows a computer in China to replace an armored car in Denver, Colorado. > There are plenty of other good uses for electricity besides bitcoin or powering a city directly. The argument "uses lots of energy = bad" is a fallacy. You have to take into account what the alternatives are. You know what uses a lot of energy? Public transit systems. But nobody is arguing that public transit systems are bad because the alternatives are a lot worse.
  - ForHackernews 6y ago
    But if you smelt aluminium, you have valuable aluminium. It's disingenuous to pretend (without any sourcing) that bitcoin is only mined using electricity that would otherwise have been wasted. If this were really true, then bitcoin miners should all be getting paid to act as load banks[0] for their local electrical grid and soak up that excess power. Since they are instead paying for electricity, they are using valuable electricity, not spare/waste power. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_bank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_bank
    - zyphr 6y ago
      That is exactly what power companies are going to do.
    - mightybyte 6y ago
      > But if you smelt aluminium, you have valuable aluminium. And it's useless until you spend more energy to move it to where people want it. > It's disingenuous to pretend (without any sourcing) that bitcoin is only mined using electricity that would otherwise have been wasted. It doesn't have to be only mined that way. You're being absolutist. Competition has resulted in bitcoin mining being very sensitive to energy costs. It stands to reason that miners--especially the ones operating at large scale--will move to places where there is cheap energy. https://www.publish0x.com/muchograph/top-5-biggest-bitcoin-mining-farms-in-the-world-with-picture-xqmyqr https://www.publish0x.com/muchograph/top-5-biggest-bitcoin-m... Several of the big mining operations mentioned there are located in places known for cheap electricity. Genesis mining relocated to Canada and Iceland specifically for cheaper power. Gigawatt is located in Washington State which has some of the cheapest electricity in the U.S. (part of the reason Google chose The Dalles, OR for one of their data centers).
sparsely 6y ago
It's true, energy markets are entirely unresponsive to supply and demand and contain no feedback loops.
cbzbc 6y ago
If you are generating electricity where it cannot be used, then you are causing needless environmental damage and you should almost certainly stop doing that.

by zyphr 6y ago

ForHackernews 6y ago

Says who? Bitcoin advocates always claim this, but never provide any compelling sources to back up this assertion. Can you not smelt aluminium in remote areas? Can you not perform hydrolysis to generate hydrogen? There are plenty of other good uses for electricity besides bitcoin or powering a city directly.

mightybyte 6y ago
If you smelt aluminium in a remote area you then have to move it to an area where it can be useful. Moving it consumes a lot of energy. If you mine a bitcoin near a power plant with excess capacity, anyone anywhere in the world with an internet connection can leverage that work for value transmission. This literally allows a computer in China to replace an armored car in Denver, Colorado. > There are plenty of other good uses for electricity besides bitcoin or powering a city directly. The argument "uses lots of energy = bad" is a fallacy. You have to take into account what the alternatives are. You know what uses a lot of energy? Public transit systems. But nobody is arguing that public transit systems are bad because the alternatives are a lot worse.
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  But if you smelt aluminium, you have valuable aluminium. It's disingenuous to pretend (without any sourcing) that bitcoin is only mined using electricity that would otherwise have been wasted. If this were really true, then bitcoin miners should all be getting paid to act as load banks[0] for their local electrical grid and soak up that excess power. Since they are instead paying for electricity, they are using valuable electricity, not spare/waste power. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_bank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_bank
  - zyphr 6y ago
    That is exactly what power companies are going to do.
  - mightybyte 6y ago
    > But if you smelt aluminium, you have valuable aluminium. And it's useless until you spend more energy to move it to where people want it. > It's disingenuous to pretend (without any sourcing) that bitcoin is only mined using electricity that would otherwise have been wasted. It doesn't have to be only mined that way. You're being absolutist. Competition has resulted in bitcoin mining being very sensitive to energy costs. It stands to reason that miners--especially the ones operating at large scale--will move to places where there is cheap energy. https://www.publish0x.com/muchograph/top-5-biggest-bitcoin-mining-farms-in-the-world-with-picture-xqmyqr https://www.publish0x.com/muchograph/top-5-biggest-bitcoin-m... Several of the big mining operations mentioned there are located in places known for cheap electricity. Genesis mining relocated to Canada and Iceland specifically for cheaper power. Gigawatt is located in Washington State which has some of the cheapest electricity in the U.S. (part of the reason Google chose The Dalles, OR for one of their data centers).

sparsely 6y ago

It's true, energy markets are entirely unresponsive to supply and demand and contain no feedback loops.

cbzbc 6y ago

If you are generating electricity where it cannot be used, then you are causing needless environmental damage and you should almost certainly stop doing that.