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I absolutely understand the desire for doing things the same way as the professionals or imposing artificial limitations to push oneself harder. That and keepin

I absolutely understand the desire for doing things the same way as the professionals or imposing artificial limitations to push oneself harder. That and keeping fit is why I lift weights. Still, if keeping fit was the ultimate goal, everyone would be riding heavy old steel frames instead of chasing sub-1% efficiency gains ;-) There is a huge element of gear geekery involved and to an extent also some cargo culting. I know, I've been there myself for a bit. Now I ride a 3-speed stepover bike with a basket on the front, because trying to always go faster was going to get me maimed in traffic at some point.

dfgdghdf 6y ago
The reason is that a light and stiff bike is much more fun to ride! An expensive road bike is optimizing for fun and performance. A heavy old steel bike is optimizing for cost and reliability. If you are riding for fitness then fun is important.
- KozmoNau7 6y ago
  My counterpoint is that I have a lot more fun when riding my relaxed steel frame bike at a moderate speed, than I ever had when riding a road bike fast. That means I ride farther and for longer, but it's the kind of fun that cannot be quantified in hard numbers. I find the performance-chasing stressful, whether on a bike, in a car or in front of a PC, and we could all do with a bit less stress in our lives.
  - scns 6y ago
    Shows that having fun is subjective.
- exporectomy 6y ago
  But the point is, an electrically assisted bike is even more fun. Or if you don't like any extra assistance, tune the power to just compensate for the weight of a steel frame so it feels like a carbon-fiber bike but at lower cost. Why isn't that the most popular type of high-end recreation bike?
  - KozmoNau7 6y ago
    You can tune so the acceleration feels like a lighter bike, but for braking and cornering, you're still going to feel the extra weight, there's no way to artificially lighten an object, you can't cheat mass and gravity, it's the same reason why a Tesla Roadster is a very different car from a Mazda MX-5 and the Mazda would be a fundamentally changed car if you made it electric. Still, for the vast majority of everyday cyclists, the "purity" of the experience doesn't matter, they want to get from A to B in a practical manner. They want to see things and do things, the bike ride is not a goal in itself. For the sports cyclist with aspirations based on their professional idols, they want to ride what the professionals ride, not a simulation. Personally I think the whole concept of trying to ape the professionals is a bit silly, which is why I don't do it anymore :-)
    - exporectomy 6y ago
      I think you could have power assisted brakes to simulate a lighter bike if you really wanted that.
usrusr 6y ago
The lure is getting fit and achieving something graspable with that fitness. Riding an artificially incapable bike would ruin the latter, like cooking something nice with one hand tied behind your back, riding an e-bike would ruin the former, like advising a weight lifter that he could raise that bar much more frequently if he removed those annoying metal discs from the ends.
- exporectomy 6y ago
  Hmm, so is it that the difference between 0 and non-zero power assistance happens to provide a natural well defined boundary between not handicapping yourself and still posing a challenge? It's not really about the power assistance at all but about having a clear scope to avoid drifting off into easier-and-easier land until you're weightlifting without weights and "cooking" by hiring a personal chef?
  - usrusr 6y ago
    Kind of, but it's not a continuum at all. Cyclists may use a surprising number of batteries (some configurations provide you with no less than five charging states to keep in mind, and that's before adding lights, and not counting the three coin cells also hidden in that configuration), but when you start using external power for propulsion, from a cyclist's perspective, puts it into an entirely different category: it's not a particularly easy bike, it's a very weak motorcycle. Obviously from a driver's perspective it's exactly reversed and cyclists will happily tap into powered drafting opportunities whenever they arise, but the category borders are what they are. Imagine showing up at a marathon start block wearing roller blades: good luck convincing anyone that you do and love the same thing, just having a slightly different taste in footwear.
    - exporectomy 6y ago
      I'm not talking about organized sport, just recreation, so rules don't matter. Nor about other electric devices, just powered propulsion. I used to cycle for fun and had no idea what rules the actual sports might have had - it didn't matter to me. I'm sure there are others who also do it for purely personal reasons and don't need to follow any rules. Just calling it a weak motorcycle doesn't really explain anything other than the cyclist's confusion about what he wants.

dfgdghdf 6y ago

The reason is that a light and stiff bike is much more fun to ride! An expensive road bike is optimizing for fun and performance. A heavy old steel bike is optimizing for cost and reliability. If you are riding for fitness then fun is important.

KozmoNau7 6y ago
My counterpoint is that I have a lot more fun when riding my relaxed steel frame bike at a moderate speed, than I ever had when riding a road bike fast. That means I ride farther and for longer, but it's the kind of fun that cannot be quantified in hard numbers. I find the performance-chasing stressful, whether on a bike, in a car or in front of a PC, and we could all do with a bit less stress in our lives.
- scns 6y ago
  Shows that having fun is subjective.
exporectomy 6y ago
But the point is, an electrically assisted bike is even more fun. Or if you don't like any extra assistance, tune the power to just compensate for the weight of a steel frame so it feels like a carbon-fiber bike but at lower cost. Why isn't that the most popular type of high-end recreation bike?
- KozmoNau7 6y ago
  You can tune so the acceleration feels like a lighter bike, but for braking and cornering, you're still going to feel the extra weight, there's no way to artificially lighten an object, you can't cheat mass and gravity, it's the same reason why a Tesla Roadster is a very different car from a Mazda MX-5 and the Mazda would be a fundamentally changed car if you made it electric. Still, for the vast majority of everyday cyclists, the "purity" of the experience doesn't matter, they want to get from A to B in a practical manner. They want to see things and do things, the bike ride is not a goal in itself. For the sports cyclist with aspirations based on their professional idols, they want to ride what the professionals ride, not a simulation. Personally I think the whole concept of trying to ape the professionals is a bit silly, which is why I don't do it anymore :-)
  - exporectomy 6y ago
    I think you could have power assisted brakes to simulate a lighter bike if you really wanted that.

usrusr 6y ago

The lure is getting fit and achieving something graspable with that fitness. Riding an artificially incapable bike would ruin the latter, like cooking something nice with one hand tied behind your back, riding an e-bike would ruin the former, like advising a weight lifter that he could raise that bar much more frequently if he removed those annoying metal discs from the ends.

exporectomy 6y ago
Hmm, so is it that the difference between 0 and non-zero power assistance happens to provide a natural well defined boundary between not handicapping yourself and still posing a challenge? It's not really about the power assistance at all but about having a clear scope to avoid drifting off into easier-and-easier land until you're weightlifting without weights and "cooking" by hiring a personal chef?
- usrusr 6y ago
  Kind of, but it's not a continuum at all. Cyclists may use a surprising number of batteries (some configurations provide you with no less than five charging states to keep in mind, and that's before adding lights, and not counting the three coin cells also hidden in that configuration), but when you start using external power for propulsion, from a cyclist's perspective, puts it into an entirely different category: it's not a particularly easy bike, it's a very weak motorcycle. Obviously from a driver's perspective it's exactly reversed and cyclists will happily tap into powered drafting opportunities whenever they arise, but the category borders are what they are. Imagine showing up at a marathon start block wearing roller blades: good luck convincing anyone that you do and love the same thing, just having a slightly different taste in footwear.
  - exporectomy 6y ago
    I'm not talking about organized sport, just recreation, so rules don't matter. Nor about other electric devices, just powered propulsion. I used to cycle for fun and had no idea what rules the actual sports might have had - it didn't matter to me. I'm sure there are others who also do it for purely personal reasons and don't need to follow any rules. Just calling it a weak motorcycle doesn't really explain anything other than the cyclist's confusion about what he wants.