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Unfortunately any critical view of corona related vaccination is quickly downvoted to oblivion here. I am deeply concerned in how an experimental vaccine with v

by adevx 6y ago

Unfortunately any critical view of corona related vaccination is quickly downvoted to oblivion here. I am deeply concerned in how an experimental vaccine with very little research on long term effects is being promoted as our saviour. Vaccinating healthy young people who are statistically proven to not be vulnerable (there are exceptions which are highlighted in the media) sounds utterly insane to me. Smoking alone killed more than twice as many people in the Netherlands last year vs corona, just to get some perspective. I think we are making irrational short term decisions based on fear.

alkonaut 6y ago
I think this argument is misdirected. It's not that we can't accept the number of dead. Even at the top IFR of 1-2%, society could "stand" seeing that many dead. But that figure (the one you are comparing to the deaths from smoking) is with mostly functioning healthcare. It's with strict mitigations. Such mitigations aren't sustainable long term. Without those mitigations you'd be likely to have healthcare overload. That would lead to extremely hard to swallow effects, such as healthcare workers walking out leading to even bigger shortages, or IFR of the disease skyrocketing because even moderate cases lead to death when there is no healthcare available. As a society, having healthy middle aged people die in waiting rooms and parking lots from what could be prevented with some oxygen isn't acceptable. This isn't an "irrational fear" - this actually happened already in several places across the world.
- loveistheanswer 6y ago
  What is preventing health care from being able to scale up? In the US, politicians, bureaucrats, and doctors have been working together for decades to artificially limit the number of doctors.[1] [1]https://qz.com/1676207/the-us-is-on-the-verge-of-a-devastating-doctor-shortage/ https://qz.com/1676207/the-us-is-on-the-verge-of-a-devastati...
  - alkonaut 6y ago
    Nothing but time and money prevents scaling. If we really really wanted to we could add a lot more doctors and nurses several years from now if they start training today. Obviously a plan that doesn’t help the first few years. So not useful in this pandemic, but perhaps something to think about. I think your link is very US centric, this problem exists in the whole world (although the US isn’t alone in having a doctor shortage that could be called artificial).
    - loveistheanswer 6y ago
      >Nothing but time and money prevents scaling. If we really really wanted to we could add a lot more doctors and nurses several years from now if they start training today. Time and money are not the only factors. Political will power and incentives are also important factors. Take World War 2 for example. Time was in short supply, but will power was not. As a result, manufacturing and training were scaled up quicker than ever before in history. As indicated by the artificial doctor shortage, it would seem health care is politically and financially disincentivized to scale up.
      - alkonaut 6y ago
        > Political will power and incentives are also important factors. Yes. I think people would rather take a vaccine that doesn't have 10 years of "long term effect trials" than together form the political will to pay a LOT more taxes for some war effort to scale healthcare because the vaccines are "too risky". > manufacturing and training were scaled up quicker than ever before in history. If 5 people can build a bomber in a year then a 100 people can build it in a month. But if training a doctor takes 5 years then training a doctor in an extreme hurry still takes more or less 5 years. Not to mention the time to build hospitals (or forming the political will to do so). Basically: politics and healthcare scaling are interesting topics but quite irrelevant to the Covid pandemic response. Any healthcare changes (and the political changes preceding them) would have to take place in the early part of the 2000's.
        loveistheanswer 6y ago

by adevx 6y ago

alkonaut 6y ago

I think this argument is misdirected. It's not that we can't accept the number of dead. Even at the top IFR of 1-2%, society could "stand" seeing that many dead. But that figure (the one you are comparing to the deaths from smoking) is with mostly functioning healthcare. It's with strict mitigations. Such mitigations aren't sustainable long term. Without those mitigations you'd be likely to have healthcare overload. That would lead to extremely hard to swallow effects, such as healthcare workers walking out leading to even bigger shortages, or IFR of the disease skyrocketing because even moderate cases lead to death when there is no healthcare available. As a society, having healthy middle aged people die in waiting rooms and parking lots from what could be prevented with some oxygen isn't acceptable. This isn't an "irrational fear" - this actually happened already in several places across the world.

loveistheanswer 6y ago
What is preventing health care from being able to scale up? In the US, politicians, bureaucrats, and doctors have been working together for decades to artificially limit the number of doctors.[1] [1]https://qz.com/1676207/the-us-is-on-the-verge-of-a-devastating-doctor-shortage/ https://qz.com/1676207/the-us-is-on-the-verge-of-a-devastati...
- alkonaut 6y ago
  Nothing but time and money prevents scaling. If we really really wanted to we could add a lot more doctors and nurses several years from now if they start training today. Obviously a plan that doesn’t help the first few years. So not useful in this pandemic, but perhaps something to think about. I think your link is very US centric, this problem exists in the whole world (although the US isn’t alone in having a doctor shortage that could be called artificial).
  - loveistheanswer 6y ago
    >Nothing but time and money prevents scaling. If we really really wanted to we could add a lot more doctors and nurses several years from now if they start training today. Time and money are not the only factors. Political will power and incentives are also important factors. Take World War 2 for example. Time was in short supply, but will power was not. As a result, manufacturing and training were scaled up quicker than ever before in history. As indicated by the artificial doctor shortage, it would seem health care is politically and financially disincentivized to scale up.
    - alkonaut 6y ago
      > Political will power and incentives are also important factors. Yes. I think people would rather take a vaccine that doesn't have 10 years of "long term effect trials" than together form the political will to pay a LOT more taxes for some war effort to scale healthcare because the vaccines are "too risky". > manufacturing and training were scaled up quicker than ever before in history. If 5 people can build a bomber in a year then a 100 people can build it in a month. But if training a doctor takes 5 years then training a doctor in an extreme hurry still takes more or less 5 years. Not to mention the time to build hospitals (or forming the political will to do so). Basically: politics and healthcare scaling are interesting topics but quite irrelevant to the Covid pandemic response. Any healthcare changes (and the political changes preceding them) would have to take place in the early part of the 2000's.
      - loveistheanswer 6y ago