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If anything, the poorer people will be the ones going to 68. So your grand plan is to let the poor freeze while the rich stay warm?

austincheney 6y ago
We normally operate our thermostat at 67 during the winter but have put it down to 60 given the power crisis. If people are crying about going way down to 68 I have no sympathy.
- joosters 6y ago
  68 = they deserve the pain, 67 = all ok? It's not about the absolute numbers, they were presumably just picked out of a hat. It's the general concept. Why is there so little empathy on here?
  - jodrellblank 6y ago
    Because there’s a difference between - the poor are freezing to death while the rich have plenty - we have you over a barrel, how much is it worth not to die? - the poor might have to run their dishwasher at a different time if they want t-shirt and shorts temperature indoors in the coldest winter in 40 years
    - joosters 6y ago
      Why are you assuming that the poor are demanding t-shirt and shorts temperatures? Please stop making up strawmen. And when did dishwashers come into this? Are you really expecting that poor people should be buying brand new 'smart' dishwashers that will pick the right time to run to save some cents? I'm sure they've got the cash for that purchase just sitting around in the bank.
      - jodrellblank 6y ago
        Because that’s what the discussed 68F temperature is, I didn’t make up 68F as a straw man, it was suggested by parent comments as an unreasonably cold that it’s in humane to leave poor people to experience unassisted. Dishwashers come into it when the parent poster arguing in favour of markets-fix-everything said their plan was not for poor people to become human icicles, but for everyone to be pushed by prices to adjust non-essential power use such as washing to other times. Such a plan doesn’t depend on a smart anything - ERCOT twitter feed is suggesting people don’t do laundry on Valentine’s Day to reduce power use, the suggested price influence is that people don’t do laundry by their own choice because it costs more. Pricing isn’t demand based, so everyone does laundry and uses heat, then the grid collapses - do you think the rich and poor are equally affected by rolling blackouts? That they’re more egalitarian? I suspect not, as rich people will have more and fancier clothing, more money for impromptu propane purchases, more insulated houses, more luxurious vehicles and more money for gas, etc. There is no current way to provide enough electricity to keep people alive while not providing any for rich people’s luxuries. If demand-based pricing can reduce overall use so the grid doesn’t collapse and there isn’t a huge price surge and people can afford to survive, isn’t that better? Fixing wealth inequality or assisting the poor could come outside this system - UK has a winter fuel payment for the elderly and poor, for example: https://www.gov.uk/winter-fuel-payment https://www.gov.uk/winter-fuel-payment
  - austincheney 6y ago
    When we are facing record snow and temperature low with possible grid collapse that could result in numerous deaths then yes... my sympathy for first world comforts softens.
  - commandlinefan 6y ago
    Ok just for the record you’re not going to freeze to death at 67. I know because I’m in Dallas and my heater is out entirely. It’s 52 in here and were cold and uncomfortable but we’re not going to freeze to death either.
jodrellblank 6y ago
While I agree with your outrage, 68F is 20C, that’s a hot summer day in the UK; check this historic weather data for Heathrow Airport[1] for example, 5 months recorded a temp over 20C in 2020 and usually 4 or 3 in earlier years. That isn’t a temperature you can reasonably describe as “freezing”. I’m not used to having a thermostat that high even in winter, it’s getting hot and stuffy that warm. [1] https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/pub/data/weather/uk/climate/stationdata/heathrowdata.txt https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/pub/data/weather/uk/climate/sta...
- merpnderp 6y ago
  You must have much higher humidity. Because 68F at 0 humidity is a little chilly even in a sweater. Right now it is -8F and my heater just clicked off set at 60F and I’m cold even under my electric blanket with a sweater on.
  - jodrellblank 6y ago
    Must be; it's 16C (61F) indoors and I've a window open to get a cooler breeze in because it's fresh outside.
  - qayxc 6y ago
    I think you have that backwards. Cold air with low humidity doesn't feel nearly as cold as cold air in high humidity. 20°C isn't cold at all unless you're soaking wet or there's some serious draft going on in your house.
londons_explore 6y ago
Making people pay directly for what they use puts them at an advantage when the alternative is for them to pay a share of what everyone uses. Would you prefer to be poor and have a large electricity bill because bob up the street uses power at the worst time of day, or would you prefer to at least have the option to save money by heating your house when power is cheaper and let bob pay extra for not being considerate about his power use times?

austincheney 6y ago

We normally operate our thermostat at 67 during the winter but have put it down to 60 given the power crisis. If people are crying about going way down to 68 I have no sympathy.

joosters 6y ago
68 = they deserve the pain, 67 = all ok? It's not about the absolute numbers, they were presumably just picked out of a hat. It's the general concept. Why is there so little empathy on here?
- jodrellblank 6y ago
  Because there’s a difference between - the poor are freezing to death while the rich have plenty - we have you over a barrel, how much is it worth not to die? - the poor might have to run their dishwasher at a different time if they want t-shirt and shorts temperature indoors in the coldest winter in 40 years
  - joosters 6y ago
    Why are you assuming that the poor are demanding t-shirt and shorts temperatures? Please stop making up strawmen. And when did dishwashers come into this? Are you really expecting that poor people should be buying brand new 'smart' dishwashers that will pick the right time to run to save some cents? I'm sure they've got the cash for that purchase just sitting around in the bank.
    - jodrellblank 6y ago
      Because that’s what the discussed 68F temperature is, I didn’t make up 68F as a straw man, it was suggested by parent comments as an unreasonably cold that it’s in humane to leave poor people to experience unassisted. Dishwashers come into it when the parent poster arguing in favour of markets-fix-everything said their plan was not for poor people to become human icicles, but for everyone to be pushed by prices to adjust non-essential power use such as washing to other times. Such a plan doesn’t depend on a smart anything - ERCOT twitter feed is suggesting people don’t do laundry on Valentine’s Day to reduce power use, the suggested price influence is that people don’t do laundry by their own choice because it costs more. Pricing isn’t demand based, so everyone does laundry and uses heat, then the grid collapses - do you think the rich and poor are equally affected by rolling blackouts? That they’re more egalitarian? I suspect not, as rich people will have more and fancier clothing, more money for impromptu propane purchases, more insulated houses, more luxurious vehicles and more money for gas, etc. There is no current way to provide enough electricity to keep people alive while not providing any for rich people’s luxuries. If demand-based pricing can reduce overall use so the grid doesn’t collapse and there isn’t a huge price surge and people can afford to survive, isn’t that better? Fixing wealth inequality or assisting the poor could come outside this system - UK has a winter fuel payment for the elderly and poor, for example: https://www.gov.uk/winter-fuel-payment https://www.gov.uk/winter-fuel-payment
- austincheney 6y ago
  When we are facing record snow and temperature low with possible grid collapse that could result in numerous deaths then yes... my sympathy for first world comforts softens.
- commandlinefan 6y ago
  Ok just for the record you’re not going to freeze to death at 67. I know because I’m in Dallas and my heater is out entirely. It’s 52 in here and were cold and uncomfortable but we’re not going to freeze to death either.

jodrellblank 6y ago

While I agree with your outrage, 68F is 20C, that’s a hot summer day in the UK; check this historic weather data for Heathrow Airport[1] for example, 5 months recorded a temp over 20C in 2020 and usually 4 or 3 in earlier years. That isn’t a temperature you can reasonably describe as “freezing”. I’m not used to having a thermostat that high even in winter, it’s getting hot and stuffy that warm. [1] https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/pub/data/weather/uk/climate/stationdata/heathrowdata.txt https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/pub/data/weather/uk/climate/sta...

merpnderp 6y ago
You must have much higher humidity. Because 68F at 0 humidity is a little chilly even in a sweater. Right now it is -8F and my heater just clicked off set at 60F and I’m cold even under my electric blanket with a sweater on.
- jodrellblank 6y ago
  Must be; it's 16C (61F) indoors and I've a window open to get a cooler breeze in because it's fresh outside.
- qayxc 6y ago
  I think you have that backwards. Cold air with low humidity doesn't feel nearly as cold as cold air in high humidity. 20°C isn't cold at all unless you're soaking wet or there's some serious draft going on in your house.

londons_explore 6y ago

Making people pay directly for what they use puts them at an advantage when the alternative is for them to pay a share of what everyone uses. Would you prefer to be poor and have a large electricity bill because bob up the street uses power at the worst time of day, or would you prefer to at least have the option to save money by heating your house when power is cheaper and let bob pay extra for not being considerate about his power use times?