4 ms·

or even western Europe. There are some world class developers in Spain, Italy or France that are paid ~30K€ to 50K€ per year. Even when factoring in the tax l

by luch 6y ago

or even western Europe. There are some world class developers in Spain, Italy or France that are paid ~30K€ to 50K€ per year. Even when factoring in the tax levels and COL, there is still a huge potential for social dumping from the EU

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
Spain and Italy are Western Europe by post-WW2 geo-politics, but a better definition would be to say they are Southern Europe which, by developer pay, is even worse than Eastern Europe that most devs there have long moved north to the point where I doubt they're many left there.
- atomashpolskiy 6y ago
  Hehe, I, for one, moved to Spain (Costa del Sol) from a high paying location. Working remotely for a US company through a Spanish outsourcing company and getting payed peanuts compared to what I earned back at home, not to speak of US salaries (though my pay here is still 2x average local salary). Heck, although I'm basically living paycheck to paycheck right now, I could not be happier with my decision, life is good here. I'm sure I will be able to find new sources of income over time to compensate for the initial losses. But I could never have found the great climate, nature and relaxed people in many other top paying spots. Can't have everything right away, have patience.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    My point was that of young talented native Spaniards and Italians leaving for greener pastures abroad (Netherlands, Ireland, Scandinavia, UK, Germany are full of them) I'm sure there is an endless supply of techies willing to move to Spain and Southern Europe just for the weather and the beaches, regardless of pay. If you don't mind me asking how do you find daily life there and dealing with taxes, healthcare, the authorities an bureaucracy in general?
    - atomashpolskiy 6y ago
      Sure. Icome tax is paid by the employer, it varies from around 25% to more than 30% depending on place and personal conditions. Public healthcare is fine, and I also pay for a private insurance. Bureacracy is so-so, and reportedly got worse with covid, though my employer helped me with the adaptation, so everything went smooth (spent 1 month in total to settle everything for everybody). Also, all family members are granted visas with the right to work, at least when you hold a "highly qualified professional" type of visa yourself. I understand that this is not very informative, but I'm still new here, and most of this stuff is similar in most places in EU. Realistically, the only things to worry about are money and the lack of jobs. The latter will hopefully be solved by remote becoming the norm in IT, and the former depends heavily on personal conditions. E.g. if my wife worked, it would be much easier for us. If I had a different attitude towards saving and investing in the past, it would be much easier for us. And so on and so forth. There are quite a few rich people here, and their lifestyle is awesome. Weather is good throughout the year (20-22C and clear skies with bright sun now, and February is the coldest and harshest month here), sea and mountains provide lots of opportunities for leisure and sports, birds and flowers and scents everywhere... Weirdly, I feel like I'm back in my childhood, when everything was so bright and fascinating. Completely forgot how it feels after having been deprived of all of these things due to living in a big industrial city.
      - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        >Completely forgot how it feels after having been deprived of all of these things due to living in a big industrial city. I feel you and I'm planning a similar move myself. Thanks for the detailed info.
  - tafox 6y ago
    Sounds like me. Moved to Austria, feel incredibly poor... but still making 1.5x the average local salary in my mid 20s. Weird experience.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      If you feel poor at 1.5x the local average, imagine how the pople making 1x that or below must feel. BTW, why do you feel poor if you don't mind me asking? PS: I'm also a dev in Austria now. You can reach out to me for a post-pandemic coffee if you want, would be cool to meet another dev. My email's in my profile. Cheers!
giantandroids 6y ago
> There are some world class developers in Spain, Italy or France that are paid ~30K€ to 50K€ per year I seriously question that. I hire a lot from EMEA and world class developers don't accept a pay of 30 to 50k, especially in France, Italy and Spain. Perhaps Czech Republic or the Ukraine yes.

by luch 6y ago

ChuckNorris89 6y ago

Spain and Italy are Western Europe by post-WW2 geo-politics, but a better definition would be to say they are Southern Europe which, by developer pay, is even worse than Eastern Europe that most devs there have long moved north to the point where I doubt they're many left there.

atomashpolskiy 6y ago
Hehe, I, for one, moved to Spain (Costa del Sol) from a high paying location. Working remotely for a US company through a Spanish outsourcing company and getting payed peanuts compared to what I earned back at home, not to speak of US salaries (though my pay here is still 2x average local salary). Heck, although I'm basically living paycheck to paycheck right now, I could not be happier with my decision, life is good here. I'm sure I will be able to find new sources of income over time to compensate for the initial losses. But I could never have found the great climate, nature and relaxed people in many other top paying spots. Can't have everything right away, have patience.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  My point was that of young talented native Spaniards and Italians leaving for greener pastures abroad (Netherlands, Ireland, Scandinavia, UK, Germany are full of them) I'm sure there is an endless supply of techies willing to move to Spain and Southern Europe just for the weather and the beaches, regardless of pay. If you don't mind me asking how do you find daily life there and dealing with taxes, healthcare, the authorities an bureaucracy in general?
  - atomashpolskiy 6y ago
    Sure. Icome tax is paid by the employer, it varies from around 25% to more than 30% depending on place and personal conditions. Public healthcare is fine, and I also pay for a private insurance. Bureacracy is so-so, and reportedly got worse with covid, though my employer helped me with the adaptation, so everything went smooth (spent 1 month in total to settle everything for everybody). Also, all family members are granted visas with the right to work, at least when you hold a "highly qualified professional" type of visa yourself. I understand that this is not very informative, but I'm still new here, and most of this stuff is similar in most places in EU. Realistically, the only things to worry about are money and the lack of jobs. The latter will hopefully be solved by remote becoming the norm in IT, and the former depends heavily on personal conditions. E.g. if my wife worked, it would be much easier for us. If I had a different attitude towards saving and investing in the past, it would be much easier for us. And so on and so forth. There are quite a few rich people here, and their lifestyle is awesome. Weather is good throughout the year (20-22C and clear skies with bright sun now, and February is the coldest and harshest month here), sea and mountains provide lots of opportunities for leisure and sports, birds and flowers and scents everywhere... Weirdly, I feel like I'm back in my childhood, when everything was so bright and fascinating. Completely forgot how it feels after having been deprived of all of these things due to living in a big industrial city.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      >Completely forgot how it feels after having been deprived of all of these things due to living in a big industrial city. I feel you and I'm planning a similar move myself. Thanks for the detailed info.
- tafox 6y ago
  Sounds like me. Moved to Austria, feel incredibly poor... but still making 1.5x the average local salary in my mid 20s. Weird experience.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    If you feel poor at 1.5x the local average, imagine how the pople making 1x that or below must feel. BTW, why do you feel poor if you don't mind me asking? PS: I'm also a dev in Austria now. You can reach out to me for a post-pandemic coffee if you want, would be cool to meet another dev. My email's in my profile. Cheers!

giantandroids 6y ago

> There are some world class developers in Spain, Italy or France that are paid ~30K€ to 50K€ per year I seriously question that. I hire a lot from EMEA and world class developers don't accept a pay of 30 to 50k, especially in France, Italy and Spain. Perhaps Czech Republic or the Ukraine yes.