4 ms·

Because she didn’t endorse a riot and neither did she endorse that cities should be burned. It’s utterly breathtaking how much Trump lies. But in your worldvie

Because she didn’t endorse a riot and neither did she endorse that cities should be burned. It’s utterly breathtaking how much Trump lies. But in your worldview, he’s the victim.

rayiner 6y ago
Trump didn’t endorse a riot either. And at the time of his speech, the pro-Trump protests after the election had been peaceful, to many people’s surprise. (DC had geared up for violence after the election, with plywood covering the windows, and until November 6 nothing happened.) I think Trump should have gotten impeached back in December for continuing to deny the legitimacy of the election after losing his legal challenges. But saying he incited the riot was an extremely tenuous charge.
- krapp 6y ago
  The rioters clearly believed that they were doing what Trump wanted and following his desires if not his explicit orders - that impression didn't come from nowhere, it came from months of his encouragement and sympathy with with a deranged conspiracy theory provided by Trump himself. There are clearly implications in Trump's rhetoric that mere peaceful protest would not be enough: “We will never give up. We will never concede. It doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved. Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore, and that is what this is all about. And to use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal. … “You will have an illegitimate president. That is what you will have, and we can’t let that happen. These are the facts that you won’t hear from the fake news media. It’s all part of the suppression effort. They don’t want to talk about it. They don’t want to talk about it. … “We fight like hell, and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.” And there is also the content of his now deleted tweet after the fact where he appeared to justify the violence and praise those who committed it[0], and his phone call with House minority leader Kevin McCarthy on the 6th where Trump actually seemed to be smug about it[1]. And yes, in the deleted tweet he told people to "go home with love and peace," but that's hardly a condemnation of their actions. [0]https://media-cdn.factba.se/realdonaldtrump-twitter/1346954970910707712.jpg https://media-cdn.factba.se/realdonaldtrump-twitter/13469549... [1]https://thehill.com/homenews/house/538714-trump-told-mccarthy-that-rioters-more-upset-about-the-election-than-you-are https://thehill.com/homenews/house/538714-trump-told-mccarth... Maybe it doesn't rise to a strict legal definition of incitement, but the narrative being painted in his defense of there being no causal relationship between Trump and the riots, that he simply wanted law and order and peace, is clearly specious.
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    > The rioters clearly believed So investigate the people who rioted. Isn't that logical? One of the first rioters who entered the Capitol has admitted to being BLM/antifa. So much for your false narrative. > bunch of quotes containing common non-specific poliical rhetoric I agree with what Trump said since there clearly was election fraud, as there is every time mail-in ballots are used by people who moved out of state. I don't see how that's an insurrection to say what everybody knows is true.
- wilsynet 6y ago
  Impeachment is a political finding, not a legal finding. It’s Congress that decides what qualifies as high crimes and misdemeanors. What was Trump guilty of? You say not quite the legal definition of incitement. Well how about asking to find just enough votes in Georgia and threatening consequences for not doing so? Did Trump tweet that the protestors should leave? Eventually. Surely the call with McCarthy suggests not only a significant delay in doing so, but also his state of mind regarding the riot. As for whether he incited the riot to begin with — the most senior member of the Senate GOP disagrees with you: Trump incited the riots but should be acquitted for procedural reasons (you can’t impeach a former President).
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    > It’s Congress that decides what qualifies as high crimes and misdemeanors. I suggest you read your own silly comment again. No constitional lawyer will say that holding a rally is either of those charges. In fact, the DNC had a rally in 2018 that invaded the Capitol building. I don't see endless sputtering about that, do you? Oh, TDS. > Did Trump tweet that the protestors should leave? Eventually. The same day. Unlike Pelosi, who took months to condemn the downtown burnings ... because pandering to intersectionalist votes. Not a good look for one of the top politicians in the US government, is it? > Well how about asking to find just enough votes in Georgia and threatening consequences for not doing so? Voter fraud is subject to various laws (ie. consequences.) Can you name the owner of Dominion voting systems, used in 29 states? The State of Texas couldn't, so Dominion was banned. Here's a hint: the CCP paid $400 million for Dominion just before the election. The CCP filed a billion dollar lawsuit against Trump associates as part of "lawfare." Now what's your narrative about voting fraud? Here's a reality check for leftists: Trump is no doubt a narcissist, and you don't have to like him, but he was our leader, and one of the best in the last 100 years. The nearly 5 years of pointless impeachments was shameful - the more petty the DNC gets (and Pelosi is senile enough to admit the impeachments were partisan), the more welcoming the Republican party looks. Think about that.
- tptacek 6y ago
  That was a more credible claim before the McCarthy phone call story broke, in which we learned that Trump actively resisted calls from the GOP to help end the riot and acknowledged that they were rioting in his name. And, even before we learned about that call, we knew that he tweeted criticism of VP Pence after the mob turned violent. Meanwhile, by dint of his office, he had a duty to stop the riot no matter its origin. His culpability looks pretty clear: he's a firefighter who stacked kindling next to a house, watched a fire get lit, threw some gasoline on it, and stood there cackling while it consumed the building. His best defense seems to be "it wasn't much gasoline, all things considered".
  - rayiner 6y ago
    I hadn’t read about the McCarthy call. That certainly makes his state of mind seem worse, and now I agree with you that it’s impeachable vis-a-vis being a dereliction of duty. But maybe I’m caught up in the legal definition of “incitement” but I don’t think either the speech or failure to stop the rioting doesn’t qualify as incitement.
    - tptacek 6y ago
      Yeah, we're definitely not going to resolve all of impeachment here (despite having a much stronger opinion about Trump's guilt than you do, I also think impeachment is a waste of time, and I'm not wild about the precedent of preemptively stripping someone's ability to run for office in the future, a move that penalizes Trump's voters as much as it does him). It's all complicated. I'm just saying the case against him is clearer than it given credit for.
redis_mlc 6y ago
> Because she didn’t endorse a riot and neither did she endorse that cities should be burned. Pelosi is a Democrat who is Speaker of the House. She did not condemn downtown burnings in cities with Democratic mayors for several months in order to pander to intersectionalist votes. > It’s utterly breathtaking how much Trump lies. But in your worldview, he’s the victim. He is certainly a victim of almost 5 years of failed impeachment hearings, and being deplatformed. The first impeachment investigation occurred after H. Clinton paid off a British man for false testimony, and J. Biden made a false FISA court complaint. That's why the first impeachment failed, and why you don't hear the Democrats talk about it further. Honestly, you sound like a crazy person who avoids facts to preserve a twisted, leftist narrative. Trump did not start a riot on Jan. 6 - Pelosi refused to pay for enough security to maintain order. Oh, and Happy Presidents' Day to Mr. Trump. He will go down in history as one of the most productive Presidents wrt foreign policy, red tape reduction and the Wall since Reagan, or maybe even Roosevelt.

Because she didn’t endorse a riot and neither did she endorse that cities should be burned. It’s utterly breathtaking how much Trump lies. But in your worldview, he’s the victim.

rayiner 6y ago

Trump didn’t endorse a riot either. And at the time of his speech, the pro-Trump protests after the election had been peaceful, to many people’s surprise. (DC had geared up for violence after the election, with plywood covering the windows, and until November 6 nothing happened.) I think Trump should have gotten impeached back in December for continuing to deny the legitimacy of the election after losing his legal challenges. But saying he incited the riot was an extremely tenuous charge.

krapp 6y ago
The rioters clearly believed that they were doing what Trump wanted and following his desires if not his explicit orders - that impression didn't come from nowhere, it came from months of his encouragement and sympathy with with a deranged conspiracy theory provided by Trump himself. There are clearly implications in Trump's rhetoric that mere peaceful protest would not be enough: “We will never give up. We will never concede. It doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved. Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore, and that is what this is all about. And to use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal. … “You will have an illegitimate president. That is what you will have, and we can’t let that happen. These are the facts that you won’t hear from the fake news media. It’s all part of the suppression effort. They don’t want to talk about it. They don’t want to talk about it. … “We fight like hell, and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.” And there is also the content of his now deleted tweet after the fact where he appeared to justify the violence and praise those who committed it[0], and his phone call with House minority leader Kevin McCarthy on the 6th where Trump actually seemed to be smug about it[1]. And yes, in the deleted tweet he told people to "go home with love and peace," but that's hardly a condemnation of their actions. [0]https://media-cdn.factba.se/realdonaldtrump-twitter/1346954970910707712.jpg https://media-cdn.factba.se/realdonaldtrump-twitter/13469549... [1]https://thehill.com/homenews/house/538714-trump-told-mccarthy-that-rioters-more-upset-about-the-election-than-you-are https://thehill.com/homenews/house/538714-trump-told-mccarth... Maybe it doesn't rise to a strict legal definition of incitement, but the narrative being painted in his defense of there being no causal relationship between Trump and the riots, that he simply wanted law and order and peace, is clearly specious.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  > The rioters clearly believed So investigate the people who rioted. Isn't that logical? One of the first rioters who entered the Capitol has admitted to being BLM/antifa. So much for your false narrative. > bunch of quotes containing common non-specific poliical rhetoric I agree with what Trump said since there clearly was election fraud, as there is every time mail-in ballots are used by people who moved out of state. I don't see how that's an insurrection to say what everybody knows is true.
wilsynet 6y ago
Impeachment is a political finding, not a legal finding. It’s Congress that decides what qualifies as high crimes and misdemeanors. What was Trump guilty of? You say not quite the legal definition of incitement. Well how about asking to find just enough votes in Georgia and threatening consequences for not doing so? Did Trump tweet that the protestors should leave? Eventually. Surely the call with McCarthy suggests not only a significant delay in doing so, but also his state of mind regarding the riot. As for whether he incited the riot to begin with — the most senior member of the Senate GOP disagrees with you: Trump incited the riots but should be acquitted for procedural reasons (you can’t impeach a former President).
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  > It’s Congress that decides what qualifies as high crimes and misdemeanors. I suggest you read your own silly comment again. No constitional lawyer will say that holding a rally is either of those charges. In fact, the DNC had a rally in 2018 that invaded the Capitol building. I don't see endless sputtering about that, do you? Oh, TDS. > Did Trump tweet that the protestors should leave? Eventually. The same day. Unlike Pelosi, who took months to condemn the downtown burnings ... because pandering to intersectionalist votes. Not a good look for one of the top politicians in the US government, is it? > Well how about asking to find just enough votes in Georgia and threatening consequences for not doing so? Voter fraud is subject to various laws (ie. consequences.) Can you name the owner of Dominion voting systems, used in 29 states? The State of Texas couldn't, so Dominion was banned. Here's a hint: the CCP paid $400 million for Dominion just before the election. The CCP filed a billion dollar lawsuit against Trump associates as part of "lawfare." Now what's your narrative about voting fraud? Here's a reality check for leftists: Trump is no doubt a narcissist, and you don't have to like him, but he was our leader, and one of the best in the last 100 years. The nearly 5 years of pointless impeachments was shameful - the more petty the DNC gets (and Pelosi is senile enough to admit the impeachments were partisan), the more welcoming the Republican party looks. Think about that.
tptacek 6y ago
That was a more credible claim before the McCarthy phone call story broke, in which we learned that Trump actively resisted calls from the GOP to help end the riot and acknowledged that they were rioting in his name. And, even before we learned about that call, we knew that he tweeted criticism of VP Pence after the mob turned violent. Meanwhile, by dint of his office, he had a duty to stop the riot no matter its origin. His culpability looks pretty clear: he's a firefighter who stacked kindling next to a house, watched a fire get lit, threw some gasoline on it, and stood there cackling while it consumed the building. His best defense seems to be "it wasn't much gasoline, all things considered".
- rayiner 6y ago
  I hadn’t read about the McCarthy call. That certainly makes his state of mind seem worse, and now I agree with you that it’s impeachable vis-a-vis being a dereliction of duty. But maybe I’m caught up in the legal definition of “incitement” but I don’t think either the speech or failure to stop the rioting doesn’t qualify as incitement.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    Yeah, we're definitely not going to resolve all of impeachment here (despite having a much stronger opinion about Trump's guilt than you do, I also think impeachment is a waste of time, and I'm not wild about the precedent of preemptively stripping someone's ability to run for office in the future, a move that penalizes Trump's voters as much as it does him). It's all complicated. I'm just saying the case against him is clearer than it given credit for.

redis_mlc 6y ago

> Because she didn’t endorse a riot and neither did she endorse that cities should be burned. Pelosi is a Democrat who is Speaker of the House. She did not condemn downtown burnings in cities with Democratic mayors for several months in order to pander to intersectionalist votes. > It’s utterly breathtaking how much Trump lies. But in your worldview, he’s the victim. He is certainly a victim of almost 5 years of failed impeachment hearings, and being deplatformed. The first impeachment investigation occurred after H. Clinton paid off a British man for false testimony, and J. Biden made a false FISA court complaint. That's why the first impeachment failed, and why you don't hear the Democrats talk about it further. Honestly, you sound like a crazy person who avoids facts to preserve a twisted, leftist narrative. Trump did not start a riot on Jan. 6 - Pelosi refused to pay for enough security to maintain order. Oh, and Happy Presidents' Day to Mr. Trump. He will go down in history as one of the most productive Presidents wrt foreign policy, red tape reduction and the Wall since Reagan, or maybe even Roosevelt.