38 ms·

Is there any good reason this isn't the case in America yet?

by MuffinFlavored 6y ago

Hamuko 6y ago
A good reason? No. A reason? Lobbying.
- MuffinFlavored 6y ago
  Why are other countries not victim to lobbying in the way America is? Is it just a double-edged sword that we have to thank for making us (one of) the economic powerhouse(s) of the world? At the same time, it feels like it to blame on why we can't have anything nice when compared to European countries. Am I out of line/uneducated on this matter? I very well could be. I hate just chalking the root of problems up to some massive unbeatable evil force (like lobbying).
  - ajmadesc 6y ago
    American lobbying practices are criminal offences that would land you with corruption charges in Europe.
    - emteycz 6y ago
      And that's why all the lobbying here is done behind close doors. It doesn't mean it's gone.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      Can you give a concrete example?
  - consp 6y ago
    > Why are other countries not victim to lobbying in the way America is? My guess would be the will to collect taxes is stronger than the lobbying to make it more difficult. In Europe there is far less opposition to taxation as well.
    - metiscus 6y ago
      One of the major reasons for the independence of the United States from the United Kingdom was a tax revolt. Anti-tax opinion is deeply rooted in the culture for better or worse.
  - Super_Jambo 6y ago
    America has a huge economy & relatively few legislators. The return on investment for corruption in America is _huge_ compared with other democratic countries. I do think the FPTP system in the US and UK concentrates power. And that makes them better able to exploit foreign countries (Arms deals, coups etc). But that seems less about lobbying it's more that the concentration of power makes lobbying more profitable.
  - Majromax 6y ago
    > Why are other countries not victim to lobbying in the way America is? Among other reasons, America has a uniquely loose political fundraising / election spending system. If all else fails, a company like H&R Block can directly take out election ads -- with business funds -- to campaign against candidates who would support simplified filing measures. This would be somewhere between illegal and heavily curtailed in other countries. The net effect is to give greater policy weight to issues that give concentrated benefits to (or avoid concentrated costs on) small, well-funded groups at the expense of diffuse costs (or foregone benefits) to the general public.
- rayiner 6y ago
  It’s interesting to me that people assume it’s lobbying, and not the fact that Americans are the most anti-tax people on the planet, creating a strong constituency for making tax filing difficult to increase public visibility of tax rates. In the 2020 election, pretty much every ballot measure to increase taxes failed, including in blue states like Illinois and Colorado. Other countries have lobbying too. What they don’t have is a huge population that hates taxes with a passion.
  - JackFr 6y ago
    > Americans are the most anti-tax people on the planet Our origin story is literally a tax revolt. “No taxation without representation” — they weren't looking to get a couple of new members elected to Parliament. Definitely focused on the no taxation part.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      What’s surprising is how it’s kept up through subsequent waves of immigration. My dad is an immigrant from Bangladesh, votes straight ticket Democrat, but thinks Biden’s “no tax increases for people making less than $400,000 policy” is totally sensible.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    I mean, dislike of taxation is apparently such a part of Greek culture that they've turned tax avoidance into a national sport, right? Presumably it's not just us.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      You’re right, I should qualify that with “among the people who are rule-followers enough to actually pay the taxes they owe.” Nobody complains about taxes in Bangladesh because nobody pays them.
zentiggr 6y ago
Intuit.
kuyan 6y ago
Broadly, a couple reasons: - Tax prep companies like Intuit have a vested interest in keeping tax prep difficult. - Grover Norquist (Americans for Tax Reform) believes that making filing taxes easier will make people more okay with paying taxes, and as a result, many conservative policymakers won't bite. (It's slightly more complicated than this, but I believe this assessment to be accurate.) Here's a Planet Money podcast: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/episode-760-tax-hero https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/epis... And a ProPublica series on Intuit: https://www.propublica.org/series/the-turbotax-trap https://www.propublica.org/series/the-turbotax-trap
- kristopolous 6y ago
  The second one is new to me. It's really fascinating how they choose a set of policies and work hard to construct a reality that supports the policy positions. It strikes me as so backwards. It's tinfoil hat, but my only conclusion is the actual reasons for the policy are so incredibly unpopular that they invent these realities to obscure them.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    How are they “constructing a reality?” How much taxes you pay is the reality. They’re trying to draw more attention to it, by forcing you to look the numbers in the face once a year. That’s not “constructing reality” it’s drawing attention to it. I love paying my taxes and support higher taxes with more government services. But I agree with Norquist that it’s a useful exercise for people to go through once a year and write down how much they make and what part of that the government is taking. I don’t like the idea of socializing people to accept higher taxes by deducting them automatically and making it so they never have to think about how much they’re paying.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - varjag 6y ago
      You still get your tax figures in places that do that automagically. You just don't get the suffer it out for conservative agenda experience.
KirillPanov 6y ago
Security. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26140809 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26140809
- dewey 6y ago
  That's not really a good reason for that as we have online banking, public tax records and other sensitive services available through the web for a long time.
coldcode 6y ago
Besides those two, a third one is that the IRS has been starved on resources for a long time, mostly (but not exclusively) by GOP politicians who want to make it hard to audit their rich benefactors. I had a friend who worked at the IRS his whole career until retiring (international tax law) who described the horrifically ancient systems they were forced to work with and the seriously budget limitations they had to live with. The IRS manages to miss enormous amounts of tax because they cannot afford to investigate the more complex situations, so in that aspect the politician's goals are successful. Yet investment in the IRS is highly likely to result in recapturing the huge amount of legal taxes they miss, if they were only able to. Clearly the status quo is insufficient to actually collect the taxes currently on the books. Of course tax law in the US is also politically designed to make policy that results in favored industries and organizations and to make this as obfuscated as possible, resulting in crazy complexity, which of course also benefits the tax prep industry.

Is there any good reason this isn't the case in America yet?

Hamuko 6y ago

A good reason? No. A reason? Lobbying.

MuffinFlavored 6y ago
Why are other countries not victim to lobbying in the way America is? Is it just a double-edged sword that we have to thank for making us (one of) the economic powerhouse(s) of the world? At the same time, it feels like it to blame on why we can't have anything nice when compared to European countries. Am I out of line/uneducated on this matter? I very well could be. I hate just chalking the root of problems up to some massive unbeatable evil force (like lobbying).
- ajmadesc 6y ago
  American lobbying practices are criminal offences that would land you with corruption charges in Europe.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    And that's why all the lobbying here is done behind close doors. It doesn't mean it's gone.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    Can you give a concrete example?
- consp 6y ago
  > Why are other countries not victim to lobbying in the way America is? My guess would be the will to collect taxes is stronger than the lobbying to make it more difficult. In Europe there is far less opposition to taxation as well.
  - metiscus 6y ago
    One of the major reasons for the independence of the United States from the United Kingdom was a tax revolt. Anti-tax opinion is deeply rooted in the culture for better or worse.
- Super_Jambo 6y ago
  America has a huge economy & relatively few legislators. The return on investment for corruption in America is _huge_ compared with other democratic countries. I do think the FPTP system in the US and UK concentrates power. And that makes them better able to exploit foreign countries (Arms deals, coups etc). But that seems less about lobbying it's more that the concentration of power makes lobbying more profitable.
- Majromax 6y ago
  > Why are other countries not victim to lobbying in the way America is? Among other reasons, America has a uniquely loose political fundraising / election spending system. If all else fails, a company like H&R Block can directly take out election ads -- with business funds -- to campaign against candidates who would support simplified filing measures. This would be somewhere between illegal and heavily curtailed in other countries. The net effect is to give greater policy weight to issues that give concentrated benefits to (or avoid concentrated costs on) small, well-funded groups at the expense of diffuse costs (or foregone benefits) to the general public.
rayiner 6y ago
It’s interesting to me that people assume it’s lobbying, and not the fact that Americans are the most anti-tax people on the planet, creating a strong constituency for making tax filing difficult to increase public visibility of tax rates. In the 2020 election, pretty much every ballot measure to increase taxes failed, including in blue states like Illinois and Colorado. Other countries have lobbying too. What they don’t have is a huge population that hates taxes with a passion.
- JackFr 6y ago
  > Americans are the most anti-tax people on the planet Our origin story is literally a tax revolt. “No taxation without representation” — they weren't looking to get a couple of new members elected to Parliament. Definitely focused on the no taxation part.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    What’s surprising is how it’s kept up through subsequent waves of immigration. My dad is an immigrant from Bangladesh, votes straight ticket Democrat, but thinks Biden’s “no tax increases for people making less than $400,000 policy” is totally sensible.
- tptacek 6y ago
  I mean, dislike of taxation is apparently such a part of Greek culture that they've turned tax avoidance into a national sport, right? Presumably it's not just us.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    You’re right, I should qualify that with “among the people who are rule-followers enough to actually pay the taxes they owe.” Nobody complains about taxes in Bangladesh because nobody pays them.

zentiggr 6y ago

Intuit.

kuyan 6y ago

Broadly, a couple reasons: - Tax prep companies like Intuit have a vested interest in keeping tax prep difficult. - Grover Norquist (Americans for Tax Reform) believes that making filing taxes easier will make people more okay with paying taxes, and as a result, many conservative policymakers won't bite. (It's slightly more complicated than this, but I believe this assessment to be accurate.) Here's a Planet Money podcast: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/episode-760-tax-hero https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/epis... And a ProPublica series on Intuit: https://www.propublica.org/series/the-turbotax-trap https://www.propublica.org/series/the-turbotax-trap

kristopolous 6y ago
The second one is new to me. It's really fascinating how they choose a set of policies and work hard to construct a reality that supports the policy positions. It strikes me as so backwards. It's tinfoil hat, but my only conclusion is the actual reasons for the policy are so incredibly unpopular that they invent these realities to obscure them.
- rayiner 6y ago
  How are they “constructing a reality?” How much taxes you pay is the reality. They’re trying to draw more attention to it, by forcing you to look the numbers in the face once a year. That’s not “constructing reality” it’s drawing attention to it. I love paying my taxes and support higher taxes with more government services. But I agree with Norquist that it’s a useful exercise for people to go through once a year and write down how much they make and what part of that the government is taking. I don’t like the idea of socializing people to accept higher taxes by deducting them automatically and making it so they never have to think about how much they’re paying.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - varjag 6y ago
    You still get your tax figures in places that do that automagically. You just don't get the suffer it out for conservative agenda experience.

KirillPanov 6y ago

Security. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26140809 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26140809

dewey 6y ago
That's not really a good reason for that as we have online banking, public tax records and other sensitive services available through the web for a long time.

coldcode 6y ago

Besides those two, a third one is that the IRS has been starved on resources for a long time, mostly (but not exclusively) by GOP politicians who want to make it hard to audit their rich benefactors. I had a friend who worked at the IRS his whole career until retiring (international tax law) who described the horrifically ancient systems they were forced to work with and the seriously budget limitations they had to live with. The IRS manages to miss enormous amounts of tax because they cannot afford to investigate the more complex situations, so in that aspect the politician's goals are successful. Yet investment in the IRS is highly likely to result in recapturing the huge amount of legal taxes they miss, if they were only able to. Clearly the status quo is insufficient to actually collect the taxes currently on the books. Of course tax law in the US is also politically designed to make policy that results in favored industries and organizations and to make this as obfuscated as possible, resulting in crazy complexity, which of course also benefits the tax prep industry.