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Does anybody think this might be a permanent shift? I would love it if I could have the convenience of a top-paying remote job in software development. The twit

Does anybody think this might be a permanent shift? I would love it if I could have the convenience of a top-paying remote job in software development. The twitter thread voiced concerns about this trend being like a pendulum that could swing back to the dominance of in-person work, even within a year. Covid has proved that remote employment is possible, but the question remains: will companies rescind their current policies when the pandemic fades away?

dejv 6y ago
My two cents as a remote dev for past two decades I think we are not going back as the landscape changed a lot: the scene used to consist of code me a facebook clone for 200USD to getting rich iOS apps towards seeing more bootstrapped high margin businesses and VC backed startups. This last group starting to learn doing remote work effectively and they manage to mine this talent pool profitably
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
axaxs 6y ago
Yes, but not the utopia devs in big cities want. They're in for a rude awakening when they realize people with way more talent will do the job for less, not only in the US but worldwide. And I don't mean typical outsourcing bodyshops, but truly talented people in say, the midwest US or eastern Europe.
- luch 6y ago
  or even western Europe. There are some world class developers in Spain, Italy or France that are paid ~30K€ to 50K€ per year. Even when factoring in the tax levels and COL, there is still a huge potential for social dumping from the EU
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    Spain and Italy are Western Europe by post-WW2 geo-politics, but a better definition would be to say they are Southern Europe which, by developer pay, is even worse than Eastern Europe that most devs there have long moved north to the point where I doubt they're many left there.
    - atomashpolskiy 6y ago
      Hehe, I, for one, moved to Spain (Costa del Sol) from a high paying location. Working remotely for a US company through a Spanish outsourcing company and getting payed peanuts compared to what I earned back at home, not to speak of US salaries (though my pay here is still 2x average local salary). Heck, although I'm basically living paycheck to paycheck right now, I could not be happier with my decision, life is good here. I'm sure I will be able to find new sources of income over time to compensate for the initial losses. But I could never have found the great climate, nature and relaxed people in many other top paying spots. Can't have everything right away, have patience.
      - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        My point was that of young talented native Spaniards and Italians leaving for greener pastures abroad (Netherlands, Ireland, Scandinavia, UK, Germany are full of them) I'm sure there is an endless supply of techies willing to move to Spain and Southern Europe just for the weather and the beaches, regardless of pay. If you don't mind me asking how do you find daily life there and dealing with taxes, healthcare, the authorities an bureaucracy in general?
        atomashpolskiy 6y ago
        Sure. Icome tax is paid by the employer, it varies from around 25% to more than 30% depending on place and personal conditions. Public healthcare is fine, and I also pay for a private insurance. Bureacracy is so-so, and reportedly got worse with covid, though my employer helped me with the adaptation, so everything went smooth (spent 1 month in total to settle everything for everybody). Also, all family members are granted visas with the right to work, at least when you hold a "highly qualified professional" type of visa yourself. I understand that this is not very informative, but I'm still new here, and most of this stuff is similar in most places in EU. Realistically, the only things to worry about are money and the lack of jobs. The latter will hopefully be solved by remote becoming the norm in IT, and the former depends heavily on personal conditions. E.g. if my wife worked, it would be much easier for us. If I had a different attitude towards saving and investing in the past, it would be much easier for us. And so on and so forth. There are quite a few rich people here, and their lifestyle is awesome. Weather is good throughout the year (20-22C and clear skies with bright sun now, and February is the coldest and harshest month here), sea and mountains provide lots of opportunities for leisure and sports, birds and flowers and scents everywhere... Weirdly, I feel like I'm back in my childhood, when everything was so bright and fascinating. Completely forgot how it feels after having been deprived of all of these things due to living in a big industrial city.
- anonyxyz 6y ago
  As someone who has interviewed many candidates for location independent tech work, my experience is that true talent is in the minority.
onion2k 6y ago
Does anybody think this might be a permanent shift? Even if WFH provably works well for a company it's likely that many will never admit that it's permanent. Companies will want their staff to believe WFH is a benefit, because that makes staff work harder and stay in their job longer.

dejv 6y ago

My two cents as a remote dev for past two decades I think we are not going back as the landscape changed a lot: the scene used to consist of code me a facebook clone for 200USD to getting rich iOS apps towards seeing more bootstrapped high margin businesses and VC backed startups. This last group starting to learn doing remote work effectively and they manage to mine this talent pool profitably

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

axaxs 6y ago

Yes, but not the utopia devs in big cities want. They're in for a rude awakening when they realize people with way more talent will do the job for less, not only in the US but worldwide. And I don't mean typical outsourcing bodyshops, but truly talented people in say, the midwest US or eastern Europe.

luch 6y ago
or even western Europe. There are some world class developers in Spain, Italy or France that are paid ~30K€ to 50K€ per year. Even when factoring in the tax levels and COL, there is still a huge potential for social dumping from the EU
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  Spain and Italy are Western Europe by post-WW2 geo-politics, but a better definition would be to say they are Southern Europe which, by developer pay, is even worse than Eastern Europe that most devs there have long moved north to the point where I doubt they're many left there.
  - atomashpolskiy 6y ago
    Hehe, I, for one, moved to Spain (Costa del Sol) from a high paying location. Working remotely for a US company through a Spanish outsourcing company and getting payed peanuts compared to what I earned back at home, not to speak of US salaries (though my pay here is still 2x average local salary). Heck, although I'm basically living paycheck to paycheck right now, I could not be happier with my decision, life is good here. I'm sure I will be able to find new sources of income over time to compensate for the initial losses. But I could never have found the great climate, nature and relaxed people in many other top paying spots. Can't have everything right away, have patience.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      My point was that of young talented native Spaniards and Italians leaving for greener pastures abroad (Netherlands, Ireland, Scandinavia, UK, Germany are full of them) I'm sure there is an endless supply of techies willing to move to Spain and Southern Europe just for the weather and the beaches, regardless of pay. If you don't mind me asking how do you find daily life there and dealing with taxes, healthcare, the authorities an bureaucracy in general?
      - atomashpolskiy 6y ago
        Sure. Icome tax is paid by the employer, it varies from around 25% to more than 30% depending on place and personal conditions. Public healthcare is fine, and I also pay for a private insurance. Bureacracy is so-so, and reportedly got worse with covid, though my employer helped me with the adaptation, so everything went smooth (spent 1 month in total to settle everything for everybody). Also, all family members are granted visas with the right to work, at least when you hold a "highly qualified professional" type of visa yourself. I understand that this is not very informative, but I'm still new here, and most of this stuff is similar in most places in EU. Realistically, the only things to worry about are money and the lack of jobs. The latter will hopefully be solved by remote becoming the norm in IT, and the former depends heavily on personal conditions. E.g. if my wife worked, it would be much easier for us. If I had a different attitude towards saving and investing in the past, it would be much easier for us. And so on and so forth. There are quite a few rich people here, and their lifestyle is awesome. Weather is good throughout the year (20-22C and clear skies with bright sun now, and February is the coldest and harshest month here), sea and mountains provide lots of opportunities for leisure and sports, birds and flowers and scents everywhere... Weirdly, I feel like I'm back in my childhood, when everything was so bright and fascinating. Completely forgot how it feels after having been deprived of all of these things due to living in a big industrial city.
anonyxyz 6y ago
As someone who has interviewed many candidates for location independent tech work, my experience is that true talent is in the minority.

onion2k 6y ago

Does anybody think this might be a permanent shift? Even if WFH provably works well for a company it's likely that many will never admit that it's permanent. Companies will want their staff to believe WFH is a benefit, because that makes staff work harder and stay in their job longer.