16 ms·

In Sweden, the employers are responsible for reporting your income and banks your profits on sales of stocks, funds, and real estate. So "doing your taxes" is,

In Sweden, the employers are responsible for reporting your income and banks your profits on sales of stocks, funds, and real estate. So "doing your taxes" is, for most people, just logging in and saying "yes" to the computed value. You can even just send a text to do so.

matsemann 6y ago
Just to make it clear: It's the same in Norway as well. All banks, employers, brokers, etc report everything. So most of the numbers are prefilled, and if everything looks right you don't really have to do anything. What you mainly have to fix sometimes are some deductions not being applied automatically. And that's when this form comes into play. It's just a simple wizard making it easy to add these things.
hanche 6y ago
That is pretty much the case in Norway, too. You don’t even need to say yes. Silence is taken as assent. But if you do need to go beyond that, it is just like GP wrote.
ac29 6y ago
> In Sweden, the employers are responsible for reporting your income and banks your profits on sales of stocks, funds, and real estate. This is true in the US as well, but the tax authority (IRS) gives you nothing but blank forms to fill out yourself.
- harikb 6y ago
  Not just that it is blank, it is expected that certain things that you fill match what they already know. It is more like a test, where you get nothing if you answer correctly and penalty if you make a mistake. Note: IRS does provide a way to download what they know as a pdf (what banks reported, for example), so one can get some help with the "test"
  - sargun 6y ago
    Where can you download that?
    - vector_spaces 6y ago
      Log into irs.gov and download your transcripts. You can also call them and request they be faxed or mailed to you. But they are only usually available by about July of the tax year, so only useful if you're filing late
    - owenmarshall 6y ago
      Make a good-faith error when you file your taxes. The IRS will send you a letter detailing what you did wrong per their records, your corrected taxes, and how to correct their records if you disagree. That’s what happened to me when TurboTax applied too many credits. That’s when I learned that the IRS had everything they needed to just send me a bill.
      - dawnerd 6y ago
        They don’t know about any deductions you might have though. If you’re not itemizing I guess that’s fine but for us that have a lot more stuff being written off it’s impossible for it to just be a bill. That said there are ways they could build around it but it’s the IRS so that’ll never happen.
      - GoOnThenDoTell 6y ago
        I had a similar experience, except that the IRS was missing cost basis info entirely and so they thought I should pay a huge amout, and so I had to send them the info. They were very nice about it though.
        anonAndOn 6y ago
        Seconded. This must be a known issue for them? It would have been nice to acquire the securities for $0 but I was not so lucky as their tax bill indicated.
- snorremd 6y ago
  As I understand it this is a result of big tax software companies and accounting firms lobbying to keep tax filing as complex as possible so there is still a market for them. If taxes were as easy to file as in countries like Norway and Sweden the market for accountants and tax filing software for private citizens would plummet.
  - Rayhem 6y ago
    Also the right who view tax simplification as a tax increase. The idea being that people are less involved with the process if they just click OK, and are therefore more accommodating of tax increases.
  - sul_tasto 6y ago
    the US tax system is ‘broken’ because there are powerful interests that benefit. it goes well beyond the accounting industry.
bemmu 6y ago
In Finland it's "we think you owe X amount of taxes, if you agree, do nothing".
- Hamuko 6y ago
  I wonder how many people actually bother claiming their home office as an expense for 2020. It's pretty easy to do (I did it), but the benefit isn't that massive and inaction is easier than action. The standard flat deduction for "work-related expenses" is 750 euro and you can bump that to 900 euro if you worked remotely for >50% of the year's workdays. Of course, if you actually incurred more expenses (and kept track), you can claim that, but I have my doubts about most people doing it.
  - jsmith99 6y ago
    In the UK, if you've had to work at home at all this year, you just tell the tax authorities online by ticking a few boxes on their website and they automatically adjust your PAYE code (what Americans would call withholding) so you pay less tax. It means that you don't have to fill out a tax return just because of simple adjustments like this.
    - Hamuko 6y ago
      Sounds easier than what we have, since we still have to more or less browse through the entire form. The tax authorities actually have instructions with screenshots in English how it works: https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/tax-cards-and-tax-returns/income-and-deductions/expenses-for-the-production-of-income/how-to-file-expenses-for-the-production-of-income-in-mytax/ https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/tax-cards-and-tax-returns...
    - oigursh 6y ago
      have you got a link to that please?
      - tikkabhuna 6y ago
        https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/working-at-home https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/working-at-home Did it today. It takes 5 minutes. You need the normal HMRC account though.
stanislavb 6y ago
That’s the case in Australia, too.
dataking 6y ago
To nobody's surprise, this is true in Denmark too.
MuffinFlavored 6y ago
Is there any good reason this isn't the case in America yet?
- Hamuko 6y ago
  A good reason? No. A reason? Lobbying.
  - MuffinFlavored 6y ago
    Why are other countries not victim to lobbying in the way America is? Is it just a double-edged sword that we have to thank for making us (one of) the economic powerhouse(s) of the world? At the same time, it feels like it to blame on why we can't have anything nice when compared to European countries. Am I out of line/uneducated on this matter? I very well could be. I hate just chalking the root of problems up to some massive unbeatable evil force (like lobbying).
    - ajmadesc 6y ago
      American lobbying practices are criminal offences that would land you with corruption charges in Europe.
      - emteycz 6y ago
        And that's why all the lobbying here is done behind close doors. It doesn't mean it's gone.
      - rayiner 6y ago
        Can you give a concrete example?
    - consp 6y ago
      > Why are other countries not victim to lobbying in the way America is? My guess would be the will to collect taxes is stronger than the lobbying to make it more difficult. In Europe there is far less opposition to taxation as well.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
Same in the Netherlands; in most cases, filling in taxes only involves adding any extra possessions and income you may have had (e.g. crypto). But there's actually incentive to do your taxes, because you often still have to fill in your deductibles, like (iirc) rent on the mortgage.
systemvoltage 6y ago
In the US, IRS takes the tax cut before you even see your funds in the bank account. This can be adjusted by filling out the dependents #. Basically, allowing you to have some ability to adjust based on your needs. The IRS knows everything about your taxes. The filing process is about allowing the citizen to make deductions and providing flexibility by default. I actually prefer it this way. Note that I’m not saying that the actual filing process is good - that has ways to improve. But, I’d rather take action on my part than government assuming on my behalf. I want to file taxes. I feel like I might be the only person that likes filing taxes. It’s sort of a Zen mode for me. I love it.
- wwn_se 6y ago
  You can change stuff in the Swedish forms as well. Since everything i prefilled you just need to add in a number and recalculate. But most deductions would be done for you based on automatic reporting to.
- piva00 6y ago
  All of that is the same here in Sweden, the main difference is: we get a pre-filled tax form with everything Skatteverket (the Tax Authority) knows about your income. You are free to adjust as you need, you can make deductions as you would in the US, we just don't have to pay for software to help fill out our forms. Why you would prefer to have to re-enter data that your government already has and that they will match against your own data I don't really understand...
  - Majromax 6y ago
    > Why you would prefer to have to re-enter data that your government already has and that they will match against your own data I don't really understand... Complacency, complexity, corruption, and conservatism. First, there's a strong status quo bias. The system works as-is, and the tax code is also set up in a way that's relatively simple for the median worker, so there's not a huge benefit to a change. Additionally, the IRS may not have enough data because data collection itself is decentralized. For example, married Americans typically file joint taxes, but the IRS has no way of telling who a taxpayer's spouse is until filing time. Second, a lot of the complexity of US tax law happens on the deduction side, rather than the income side. The US has last-dollar deductions from taxes, so deductions are worth proportionally more for higher-income filers, but the IRS won't necessarily know about charitable deductions or mortgage interest or home office expenses. Third is the aforementioned corruption -- tax-preparation firms consistently lobby against any sort of automatic return. Their arguments are relatively thin: they claim that automatic returns would have people not claiming tax credits they're eligible for and that developing automatic returns would be a waste of government money. In the meantime, they've collectively agreed to a "free file" program for moderate-income Americans -- only the program is barely advertised and full of "pushes" to paid tax offerings. Lastly is the ideology of fiscal conservatism in the United States. Anti-tax politicians (usually Republicans) argue that automatic filing would make it easier for future governments to raise taxes, since people would not have to calculate themselves how much they're paying in federal tax. This is often coupled with farfetched offers to greatly simplify the tax code by (e.g.) replacing it with a flat income tax that collects much less revenue.
KirillPanov 6y ago
> just logging in and saying "yes" to the computed value Holy crap, so if a h4x0r breaks into that website they can see the income and assets of every citizen of your country? That's nuts. The IRS sucks, but believe it or not they're smart about keeping data secure. The massive mainframe into which all that employer-related data gets loaded is not web-connected. In fact, not even IRS employees can access the data in there via the web. The only connectivity is through (fairly) dumb terminals with a chip-card slot. The chip-card signs each query before it's sent to the mainframe. Yank out the card and the terminal will cease to respond to your commands. The chip-card is also their employee badge.
- refurb 6y ago
  My understanding is income tax and income is public in many of these countries.
  - KirillPanov 6y ago
    You've got to be kidding me. Like if I have somebody's name I can just call up their government and ask what their salary is? I find that hard to believe. Please name these countries.
    - bennofs 6y ago
      norway, according to this article: https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/apr/11/when-it-comes-to-tax-transparency-norway-leads-the-field https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/apr/11/when-it-c...
    - koyote 6y ago
      Here you go: https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/forms/search-the-tax-lists/ https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/forms/search-the-tax-lists/
    - mustyoshi 6y ago
      "You can also check if someone has searched for you. If you search for anyone, they can see that you did" This is why it's not as bad as you think.

matsemann 6y ago

Just to make it clear: It's the same in Norway as well. All banks, employers, brokers, etc report everything. So most of the numbers are prefilled, and if everything looks right you don't really have to do anything. What you mainly have to fix sometimes are some deductions not being applied automatically. And that's when this form comes into play. It's just a simple wizard making it easy to add these things.

hanche 6y ago

That is pretty much the case in Norway, too. You don’t even need to say yes. Silence is taken as assent. But if you do need to go beyond that, it is just like GP wrote.

ac29 6y ago

> In Sweden, the employers are responsible for reporting your income and banks your profits on sales of stocks, funds, and real estate. This is true in the US as well, but the tax authority (IRS) gives you nothing but blank forms to fill out yourself.

harikb 6y ago
Not just that it is blank, it is expected that certain things that you fill match what they already know. It is more like a test, where you get nothing if you answer correctly and penalty if you make a mistake. Note: IRS does provide a way to download what they know as a pdf (what banks reported, for example), so one can get some help with the "test"
- sargun 6y ago
  Where can you download that?
  - vector_spaces 6y ago
    Log into irs.gov and download your transcripts. You can also call them and request they be faxed or mailed to you. But they are only usually available by about July of the tax year, so only useful if you're filing late
  - owenmarshall 6y ago
    Make a good-faith error when you file your taxes. The IRS will send you a letter detailing what you did wrong per their records, your corrected taxes, and how to correct their records if you disagree. That’s what happened to me when TurboTax applied too many credits. That’s when I learned that the IRS had everything they needed to just send me a bill.
    - dawnerd 6y ago
      They don’t know about any deductions you might have though. If you’re not itemizing I guess that’s fine but for us that have a lot more stuff being written off it’s impossible for it to just be a bill. That said there are ways they could build around it but it’s the IRS so that’ll never happen.
    - GoOnThenDoTell 6y ago
      I had a similar experience, except that the IRS was missing cost basis info entirely and so they thought I should pay a huge amout, and so I had to send them the info. They were very nice about it though.
      - anonAndOn 6y ago
        Seconded. This must be a known issue for them? It would have been nice to acquire the securities for $0 but I was not so lucky as their tax bill indicated.
snorremd 6y ago
As I understand it this is a result of big tax software companies and accounting firms lobbying to keep tax filing as complex as possible so there is still a market for them. If taxes were as easy to file as in countries like Norway and Sweden the market for accountants and tax filing software for private citizens would plummet.
- Rayhem 6y ago
  Also the right who view tax simplification as a tax increase. The idea being that people are less involved with the process if they just click OK, and are therefore more accommodating of tax increases.
- sul_tasto 6y ago
  the US tax system is ‘broken’ because there are powerful interests that benefit. it goes well beyond the accounting industry.

bemmu 6y ago

In Finland it's "we think you owe X amount of taxes, if you agree, do nothing".

Hamuko 6y ago
I wonder how many people actually bother claiming their home office as an expense for 2020. It's pretty easy to do (I did it), but the benefit isn't that massive and inaction is easier than action. The standard flat deduction for "work-related expenses" is 750 euro and you can bump that to 900 euro if you worked remotely for >50% of the year's workdays. Of course, if you actually incurred more expenses (and kept track), you can claim that, but I have my doubts about most people doing it.
- jsmith99 6y ago
  In the UK, if you've had to work at home at all this year, you just tell the tax authorities online by ticking a few boxes on their website and they automatically adjust your PAYE code (what Americans would call withholding) so you pay less tax. It means that you don't have to fill out a tax return just because of simple adjustments like this.
  - Hamuko 6y ago
    Sounds easier than what we have, since we still have to more or less browse through the entire form. The tax authorities actually have instructions with screenshots in English how it works: https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/tax-cards-and-tax-returns/income-and-deductions/expenses-for-the-production-of-income/how-to-file-expenses-for-the-production-of-income-in-mytax/ https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/tax-cards-and-tax-returns...
  - oigursh 6y ago
    have you got a link to that please?
    - tikkabhuna 6y ago
      https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/working-at-home https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/working-at-home Did it today. It takes 5 minutes. You need the normal HMRC account though.

stanislavb 6y ago

That’s the case in Australia, too.

dataking 6y ago

To nobody's surprise, this is true in Denmark too.

MuffinFlavored 6y ago

Is there any good reason this isn't the case in America yet?

Hamuko 6y ago
A good reason? No. A reason? Lobbying.
- MuffinFlavored 6y ago
  Why are other countries not victim to lobbying in the way America is? Is it just a double-edged sword that we have to thank for making us (one of) the economic powerhouse(s) of the world? At the same time, it feels like it to blame on why we can't have anything nice when compared to European countries. Am I out of line/uneducated on this matter? I very well could be. I hate just chalking the root of problems up to some massive unbeatable evil force (like lobbying).
  - ajmadesc 6y ago
    American lobbying practices are criminal offences that would land you with corruption charges in Europe.
    - emteycz 6y ago
      And that's why all the lobbying here is done behind close doors. It doesn't mean it's gone.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      Can you give a concrete example?
  - consp 6y ago
    > Why are other countries not victim to lobbying in the way America is? My guess would be the will to collect taxes is stronger than the lobbying to make it more difficult. In Europe there is far less opposition to taxation as well.

Cthulhu_ 6y ago

Same in the Netherlands; in most cases, filling in taxes only involves adding any extra possessions and income you may have had (e.g. crypto). But there's actually incentive to do your taxes, because you often still have to fill in your deductibles, like (iirc) rent on the mortgage.

systemvoltage 6y ago

In the US, IRS takes the tax cut before you even see your funds in the bank account. This can be adjusted by filling out the dependents #. Basically, allowing you to have some ability to adjust based on your needs. The IRS knows everything about your taxes. The filing process is about allowing the citizen to make deductions and providing flexibility by default. I actually prefer it this way. Note that I’m not saying that the actual filing process is good - that has ways to improve. But, I’d rather take action on my part than government assuming on my behalf. I want to file taxes. I feel like I might be the only person that likes filing taxes. It’s sort of a Zen mode for me. I love it.

wwn_se 6y ago
You can change stuff in the Swedish forms as well. Since everything i prefilled you just need to add in a number and recalculate. But most deductions would be done for you based on automatic reporting to.
piva00 6y ago
All of that is the same here in Sweden, the main difference is: we get a pre-filled tax form with everything Skatteverket (the Tax Authority) knows about your income. You are free to adjust as you need, you can make deductions as you would in the US, we just don't have to pay for software to help fill out our forms. Why you would prefer to have to re-enter data that your government already has and that they will match against your own data I don't really understand...
- Majromax 6y ago
  > Why you would prefer to have to re-enter data that your government already has and that they will match against your own data I don't really understand... Complacency, complexity, corruption, and conservatism. First, there's a strong status quo bias. The system works as-is, and the tax code is also set up in a way that's relatively simple for the median worker, so there's not a huge benefit to a change. Additionally, the IRS may not have enough data because data collection itself is decentralized. For example, married Americans typically file joint taxes, but the IRS has no way of telling who a taxpayer's spouse is until filing time. Second, a lot of the complexity of US tax law happens on the deduction side, rather than the income side. The US has last-dollar deductions from taxes, so deductions are worth proportionally more for higher-income filers, but the IRS won't necessarily know about charitable deductions or mortgage interest or home office expenses. Third is the aforementioned corruption -- tax-preparation firms consistently lobby against any sort of automatic return. Their arguments are relatively thin: they claim that automatic returns would have people not claiming tax credits they're eligible for and that developing automatic returns would be a waste of government money. In the meantime, they've collectively agreed to a "free file" program for moderate-income Americans -- only the program is barely advertised and full of "pushes" to paid tax offerings. Lastly is the ideology of fiscal conservatism in the United States. Anti-tax politicians (usually Republicans) argue that automatic filing would make it easier for future governments to raise taxes, since people would not have to calculate themselves how much they're paying in federal tax. This is often coupled with farfetched offers to greatly simplify the tax code by (e.g.) replacing it with a flat income tax that collects much less revenue.

KirillPanov 6y ago

> just logging in and saying "yes" to the computed value Holy crap, so if a h4x0r breaks into that website they can see the income and assets of every citizen of your country? That's nuts. The IRS sucks, but believe it or not they're smart about keeping data secure. The massive mainframe into which all that employer-related data gets loaded is not web-connected. In fact, not even IRS employees can access the data in there via the web. The only connectivity is through (fairly) dumb terminals with a chip-card slot. The chip-card signs each query before it's sent to the mainframe. Yank out the card and the terminal will cease to respond to your commands. The chip-card is also their employee badge.

refurb 6y ago
My understanding is income tax and income is public in many of these countries.
- KirillPanov 6y ago
  You've got to be kidding me. Like if I have somebody's name I can just call up their government and ask what their salary is? I find that hard to believe. Please name these countries.
  - bennofs 6y ago
    norway, according to this article: https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/apr/11/when-it-comes-to-tax-transparency-norway-leads-the-field https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/apr/11/when-it-c...
  - koyote 6y ago
    Here you go: https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/forms/search-the-tax-lists/ https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/forms/search-the-tax-lists/
  - mustyoshi 6y ago
    "You can also check if someone has searched for you. If you search for anyone, they can see that you did" This is why it's not as bad as you think.