5 ms·

as a Scandinavian, Sweden is one of the worst examples you could've picked for how COVID was handled.

by httpsterio 6y ago

ketamine__ 6y ago
It depends on what you are optimizing for...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- BrendanEich 6y ago
  Agreed. In any case, Swedish doctors knew not to abuse ventilators, as did doctors in many other places. This point got lost in the usual assumptive attack on Sweden, but it's the only reason I mentioned that country. A friend in biotech talked to an ER doc in Stockholm who confirmed that they would never intubate + vent on a closed system, as NYC hospitals apparently did in an unethical attempt to control spread.
  - lr1970 6y ago
    > as NYC hospitals apparently did in an unethical attempt to control spread. I am curious where did you git this from? In the spring 2020 COVID patients in New York City ICUs were intubated not to control spread of the virus (there were many more actively shedding virus patients on regular hospital floor) but to sustain patients' life when their oxygen saturation drops dangerously low. Some patients were so bad that they were put on ECMO. Putting people on a ventilator was not an issue in itself, it is keeping them on ventilator for weeks on time that was problematic.
BrendanEich 6y ago
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&country=SWE~NOR~FIN~DNK~EST~LVA~LTU~GBR&region=World&deathsMetric=true&interval=total&aligned=true&hideControls=true&perCapita=true&smoothing=0&pickerMetric=location&pickerSort=asc https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToS... (Baltics and UK added for perspective). The fact is Sweden lies in middle of the Eurozone pack. It had low excess mortality in recent years, which left many very old people likely to die of/with Covid if they were not protected. I'm not switching topics to defend Sweden's policy. My note was about pop. density. If you want to go at it about Sweden vs. other countries in Scandinavia, we can take it to Twitter: https://twitter.com/geenlid/status/1360771792105730049 https://twitter.com/geenlid/status/1360771792105730049 (thread) https://twitter.com/jhnhellstrom/status/1354051901751484419 https://twitter.com/jhnhellstrom/status/1354051901751484419 (radial excess mortality plot)
- cygx 6y ago
  The fact is Sweden lies in middle of the Eurozone pack. But at the bottom of the Nordics: It is somewhat suggestive that none of Sweden's direct neighbours show significant excess mortality in 2020...
  - BrendanEich 6y ago
    There are differences among these countries, but first, let's talk about reporting. Sweden says any death within a month of a Covid diagnosis (no PCR+ required, another can of worms) is due to Covid. Other Nordics are less sloppy. This makes Sweden count more deaths. Finland is a hot mess on all health stats. Norway has done better but also disavowed lockdowns.
    - cygx 6y ago
      Policy concerning covid diagnosis is not relevant when the metric under discussion is excess mortality.
      - BrendanEich 6y ago
        I agree (modulo "top" vs. "bottom" when we're talking about worse being greater-than), but your "at the bottom of the Nordics" was not about excess mortality.
        cygx 6y ago
        Quote: "It is somewhat suggestive that none of Sweden's direct neighbours show significant excess mortality in 2020..." Also, I wonder what you mean by Norway disavowing lockdowns? Because they did institute fairly strict measures on March 12, eventually going so far as forbidding people to travel to their cabins to avoid putting strain on rural infrastructure. Was there some sort of public disavowal after the fact?
        BrendanEich 6y ago

as a Scandinavian, Sweden is one of the worst examples you could've picked for how COVID was handled.

ketamine__ 6y ago

It depends on what you are optimizing for...

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
BrendanEich 6y ago
Agreed. In any case, Swedish doctors knew not to abuse ventilators, as did doctors in many other places. This point got lost in the usual assumptive attack on Sweden, but it's the only reason I mentioned that country. A friend in biotech talked to an ER doc in Stockholm who confirmed that they would never intubate + vent on a closed system, as NYC hospitals apparently did in an unethical attempt to control spread.
- lr1970 6y ago
  > as NYC hospitals apparently did in an unethical attempt to control spread. I am curious where did you git this from? In the spring 2020 COVID patients in New York City ICUs were intubated not to control spread of the virus (there were many more actively shedding virus patients on regular hospital floor) but to sustain patients' life when their oxygen saturation drops dangerously low. Some patients were so bad that they were put on ECMO. Putting people on a ventilator was not an issue in itself, it is keeping them on ventilator for weeks on time that was problematic.

BrendanEich 6y ago

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&country=SWE~NOR~FIN~DNK~EST~LVA~LTU~GBR&region=World&deathsMetric=true&interval=total&aligned=true&hideControls=true&perCapita=true&smoothing=0&pickerMetric=location&pickerSort=asc https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToS... (Baltics and UK added for perspective). The fact is Sweden lies in middle of the Eurozone pack. It had low excess mortality in recent years, which left many very old people likely to die of/with Covid if they were not protected. I'm not switching topics to defend Sweden's policy. My note was about pop. density. If you want to go at it about Sweden vs. other countries in Scandinavia, we can take it to Twitter: https://twitter.com/geenlid/status/1360771792105730049 https://twitter.com/geenlid/status/1360771792105730049 (thread) https://twitter.com/jhnhellstrom/status/1354051901751484419 https://twitter.com/jhnhellstrom/status/1354051901751484419 (radial excess mortality plot)

cygx 6y ago
The fact is Sweden lies in middle of the Eurozone pack. But at the bottom of the Nordics: It is somewhat suggestive that none of Sweden's direct neighbours show significant excess mortality in 2020...
- BrendanEich 6y ago
  There are differences among these countries, but first, let's talk about reporting. Sweden says any death within a month of a Covid diagnosis (no PCR+ required, another can of worms) is due to Covid. Other Nordics are less sloppy. This makes Sweden count more deaths. Finland is a hot mess on all health stats. Norway has done better but also disavowed lockdowns.
  - cygx 6y ago
    Policy concerning covid diagnosis is not relevant when the metric under discussion is excess mortality.
    - BrendanEich 6y ago
      I agree (modulo "top" vs. "bottom" when we're talking about worse being greater-than), but your "at the bottom of the Nordics" was not about excess mortality.
      - cygx 6y ago
        Quote: "It is somewhat suggestive that none of Sweden's direct neighbours show significant excess mortality in 2020..." Also, I wonder what you mean by Norway disavowing lockdowns? Because they did institute fairly strict measures on March 12, eventually going so far as forbidding people to travel to their cabins to avoid putting strain on rural infrastructure. Was there some sort of public disavowal after the fact?
        BrendanEich 6y ago