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>The real problem is that the demand for good teachers far exceeds the supply. There's a surefire way to increase the supply of good teachers, increase salarie

>The real problem is that the demand for good teachers far exceeds the supply. There's a surefire way to increase the supply of good teachers, increase salaries & benefits. Reduce classroom sizes. Give teachers adequate time to plan engaging lessons and make personal connections with students, their families, and the community. Teaching is a miserable job with low autonomy, high stress, a low pay ceiling, a rigid pay scale, and is absolutely draining. >We can support much better outcomes for far more kids by reducing the dependance on the quality of your teacher, school and school district. Sure, but the whole point is that this is much easier said than done. Do you have time in the classroom?

testfoobar 6y ago
I do not have classroom time. But I personally know some very good teachers. They work hard and are over burdened with full schedules, full classes and regulatory testing and lesson requirements that force them to keep a demanding pace. The ones that succeed in building meaningful relationships with students, parents and their community are standouts. These are often perceived as the "good" teachers. To me it appears they are rare because they are going well above and beyond what the job expects of them. This is the problem. There aren't enough good teachers. Salaries/benefits/class size/prep time are a function of funding. Low autonomy/high stress are the result of our regulatory demands that appear to be on a one way direction: even more requirements and testing. One particular friend left high end consulting to become a HS math teacher in an inner city school. He came with an academic background - having taught for a bit in colleges. Very optimistic. He left after 4 years because the number one problem in his classroom was keeping the kids focused at all. As he put if he had three concepts to cover in 50 minutes, he was lucky if could get 1 covered for the 2 or 3 students among the 30 that were trying to pay attention. He was a good teacher and paid well. The school, school district, the community had complex problems: low income, crime, food insecurity, parents who had to work multiple shifts, etc. He couldn't solve all these problems before explaining right triangles. I don't believe the model that we have today will survive the next 25 years. I agree that good teachers and good schools are necessary. But we don't seem to be generating or supporting enough of them. So I think the solution is to look elsewhere entirely. Break up the problem. Remove the dependence on good teachers and good schools. BTW, if you're a teacher. Thank you for what you do.
- throwaway6734 6y ago
  Like your friend, I couldn't cut it in the classroom and burnt out. Now I get paid almost 3 times as much with half the stress to program. >So I think the solution is to look elsewhere entirely. Break up the problem. Remove the dependence on good teachers and good schools. I think this comes to our fundamental disagreement. I just don't think this is possible nor a good path to pursue. Thanks for taking the time to engage in the back and forth!
webmaven 6y ago
> >The real problem is that the demand for good teachers far exceeds the supply. > There's a surefire way to increase the supply of good teachers, increase salaries & benefits. Reduce classroom sizes. I don't disagree, but either one of those solutions alone is a pretty hard sell, trying for both at once isn't going to get much traction. Personally, I suggest focusing on classroom size first, as it should improve the performance of existing teachers and at least make the job less unattractive to new teachers.
barry-cotter 6y ago
> There's a surefire way to increase the supply of good teachers, increase salaries & benefits. Reduce classroom sizes. This has all been done to very, very little effect. Reading, Math and Science scores are basically flat since 1970. K-12 employee numbers have almost doubled over the same period and costs per student have almost tripled. https://www.cato.org/blog/public-school-spending-officials-vs-some-critics https://www.cato.org/blog/public-school-spending-officials-v...
ketzu 6y ago
> Reduce classroom sizes. Give teachers adequate time to plan engaging lessons and make personal connections with students, their families, and the community. Side note: This also increases demand for teachers, because any single teacher now teaches fewer students. If you reduce class size by 1/3 you need 50% more teachers than before (at the same workload, to teach the same number of students). If you reduce class time by 1/3, you again need 50% more teachers.

testfoobar 6y ago

I do not have classroom time. But I personally know some very good teachers. They work hard and are over burdened with full schedules, full classes and regulatory testing and lesson requirements that force them to keep a demanding pace. The ones that succeed in building meaningful relationships with students, parents and their community are standouts. These are often perceived as the "good" teachers. To me it appears they are rare because they are going well above and beyond what the job expects of them. This is the problem. There aren't enough good teachers. Salaries/benefits/class size/prep time are a function of funding. Low autonomy/high stress are the result of our regulatory demands that appear to be on a one way direction: even more requirements and testing. One particular friend left high end consulting to become a HS math teacher in an inner city school. He came with an academic background - having taught for a bit in colleges. Very optimistic. He left after 4 years because the number one problem in his classroom was keeping the kids focused at all. As he put if he had three concepts to cover in 50 minutes, he was lucky if could get 1 covered for the 2 or 3 students among the 30 that were trying to pay attention. He was a good teacher and paid well. The school, school district, the community had complex problems: low income, crime, food insecurity, parents who had to work multiple shifts, etc. He couldn't solve all these problems before explaining right triangles. I don't believe the model that we have today will survive the next 25 years. I agree that good teachers and good schools are necessary. But we don't seem to be generating or supporting enough of them. So I think the solution is to look elsewhere entirely. Break up the problem. Remove the dependence on good teachers and good schools. BTW, if you're a teacher. Thank you for what you do.

throwaway6734 6y ago
Like your friend, I couldn't cut it in the classroom and burnt out. Now I get paid almost 3 times as much with half the stress to program. >So I think the solution is to look elsewhere entirely. Break up the problem. Remove the dependence on good teachers and good schools. I think this comes to our fundamental disagreement. I just don't think this is possible nor a good path to pursue. Thanks for taking the time to engage in the back and forth!

webmaven 6y ago

> >The real problem is that the demand for good teachers far exceeds the supply. > There's a surefire way to increase the supply of good teachers, increase salaries & benefits. Reduce classroom sizes. I don't disagree, but either one of those solutions alone is a pretty hard sell, trying for both at once isn't going to get much traction. Personally, I suggest focusing on classroom size first, as it should improve the performance of existing teachers and at least make the job less unattractive to new teachers.

barry-cotter 6y ago

> There's a surefire way to increase the supply of good teachers, increase salaries & benefits. Reduce classroom sizes. This has all been done to very, very little effect. Reading, Math and Science scores are basically flat since 1970. K-12 employee numbers have almost doubled over the same period and costs per student have almost tripled. https://www.cato.org/blog/public-school-spending-officials-vs-some-critics https://www.cato.org/blog/public-school-spending-officials-v...

ketzu 6y ago

> Reduce classroom sizes. Give teachers adequate time to plan engaging lessons and make personal connections with students, their families, and the community. Side note: This also increases demand for teachers, because any single teacher now teaches fewer students. If you reduce class size by 1/3 you need 50% more teachers than before (at the same workload, to teach the same number of students). If you reduce class time by 1/3, you again need 50% more teachers.