5 ms·

The US doesn’t care about productivity but more about maintaining some sort of class system. It took me a while to realize this. Also a surprising number of pe

The US doesn’t care about productivity but more about maintaining some sort of class system. It took me a while to realize this. Also a surprising number of people in the US believe that poverty is a moral failure of some sort. I never actually understood this.

_qulr 6y ago
> Also a surprising number of people in the US believe that poverty is a moral failure of some sort. Yep, there's a marriage in the US between business and religion that seems contradictory until you realize that these people believe the "invisible hand" of the market is God.
- TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
  > that these people Who? I’ve never met anyone who believes that.
  - true_religion 6y ago
    I think he may be referencing how Calvonist faiths believed that God's grace manifested as good fortune, therefore if you were rich you were likely blessed by God. I don't know how much of that theory remains true with American protestants today.
  - adamnemecek 6y ago
    Half of the country.
  - Mountain_Skies 6y ago
    >Poor people vote against their own best interests because they don't see themselves as poor, they see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires. You'll see the above quote very frequently in any discussion about class and wealth in the US. It's a glib strawman that makes those writing it feel intellectually superior to and condescending to their targets at the same time. Until those on the various sides of ideological divides actually try to understand each other instead of coming up with smug strawman models that diminish the other side's agency, the conflict will continue. Thing is, there are some who benefit from this endless conflict and it is in their best interest to see it continue. They're usually not the ones posting quotes like above as they sit on the sidelines, only occasionally tossing in an ideological grenade or two should any side start gaining the upper hand.
    - adamnemecek 6y ago
      What is the argument to be understood?
    - TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
      That has nothing to do with the Invisible Hand as far as I can tell.
  - tasty_freeze 6y ago
    Search for "Prosperity Gospel" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
  - ajmadesc 6y ago
    Look up prosperity gospel. There are dozens and dozens of mega churches across the US.
DC1350 6y ago
> I never actually understood this. If you grow up middle class or better then it’s pretty much impossible to make good decisions and end up poor. The incorrect “moral failure” mindset comes from projecting this belief onto people who grew up in poverty and never had a chance.
- adamnemecek 6y ago
  Idk if this is true. Ok what if you don’t. Also things like medical bankruptcy are way too common.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  > If you grow up middle class or better then it’s pretty much impossible to make good decisions and end up poor. That seems like a tautology. “Didn’t end up poor? Of course you didn’t, you made all good decisions. Ended up poor? Must have been those dumbass decisions you made.”
u678u 6y ago
I agree that in the UK class system results in people believing that working class people will probably stay there so tries to make conditions tolerable. In the US people are more likely to believe that anyone can make it if they try hard enough, so aren't too bothered that workers often live in poverty.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
A12-B 6y ago
Because America has such a strong hold over media, especially internet media, and has put a lot of investment into the idea of American exceptionalism, the bias Americans have towards their own country is unbelievably strong. I would argue it is stronger on average than other people's bias in other countries, for those reasons. This leads to a situation where the citizens of the US dissociate their country from things other countries do for no reason other than some inherent concept of "americanness". They think that dividing citizens by class is something only India or China does, they think people living in extreme poverty is different in America because anyone can make it. It's totally irrational and disconnected from the rest of the world.
brigandish 6y ago
> Also a surprising number of people in the US believe that poverty is a moral failure of some sort. I never actually understood this. A lot of what people take as "morals" is actually good economic sense wrapped up within a moral code, and even those who advocate it in that form can still sniff out the good sense from it. Strip away the morality (as we should) and the "good" behaviour is supported strongly by research, as this[1], from the left leaning Brookings Institute, shows: > poor children are more likely to make bad decisions that lead them to drop out of school, become teen parents, join gangs and break the law. > Let politicians, schoolteachers and administrators, community leaders, ministers and parents drill into children the message that in a free society, they enter adulthood with three major responsibilities: at least finish high school, get a full-time job and wait until age 21 to get married and have children. > Our research shows that of American adults who followed these three simple rules, only about 2 percent are in poverty and nearly 75 percent have joined the middle class By cutting out those bits from the whole piece it makes it sound overly harsh but still, let's not throw out the baby from the conservative's bathwater. [1] https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/three-simple-rules-poor-teens-should-follow-to-join-the-middle-class/ https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/three-simple-rules-poor-t...

_qulr 6y ago

> Also a surprising number of people in the US believe that poverty is a moral failure of some sort. Yep, there's a marriage in the US between business and religion that seems contradictory until you realize that these people believe the "invisible hand" of the market is God.

TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
> that these people Who? I’ve never met anyone who believes that.
- true_religion 6y ago
  I think he may be referencing how Calvonist faiths believed that God's grace manifested as good fortune, therefore if you were rich you were likely blessed by God. I don't know how much of that theory remains true with American protestants today.
- adamnemecek 6y ago
  Half of the country.
- Mountain_Skies 6y ago
  >Poor people vote against their own best interests because they don't see themselves as poor, they see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires. You'll see the above quote very frequently in any discussion about class and wealth in the US. It's a glib strawman that makes those writing it feel intellectually superior to and condescending to their targets at the same time. Until those on the various sides of ideological divides actually try to understand each other instead of coming up with smug strawman models that diminish the other side's agency, the conflict will continue. Thing is, there are some who benefit from this endless conflict and it is in their best interest to see it continue. They're usually not the ones posting quotes like above as they sit on the sidelines, only occasionally tossing in an ideological grenade or two should any side start gaining the upper hand.
  - adamnemecek 6y ago
    What is the argument to be understood?
  - TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
    That has nothing to do with the Invisible Hand as far as I can tell.
- tasty_freeze 6y ago
  Search for "Prosperity Gospel" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
- ajmadesc 6y ago
  Look up prosperity gospel. There are dozens and dozens of mega churches across the US.

DC1350 6y ago

> I never actually understood this. If you grow up middle class or better then it’s pretty much impossible to make good decisions and end up poor. The incorrect “moral failure” mindset comes from projecting this belief onto people who grew up in poverty and never had a chance.

adamnemecek 6y ago
Idk if this is true. Ok what if you don’t. Also things like medical bankruptcy are way too common.
chordalkeyboard 6y ago
> If you grow up middle class or better then it’s pretty much impossible to make good decisions and end up poor. That seems like a tautology. “Didn’t end up poor? Of course you didn’t, you made all good decisions. Ended up poor? Must have been those dumbass decisions you made.”

u678u 6y ago

I agree that in the UK class system results in people believing that working class people will probably stay there so tries to make conditions tolerable. In the US people are more likely to believe that anyone can make it if they try hard enough, so aren't too bothered that workers often live in poverty.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

A12-B 6y ago

Because America has such a strong hold over media, especially internet media, and has put a lot of investment into the idea of American exceptionalism, the bias Americans have towards their own country is unbelievably strong. I would argue it is stronger on average than other people's bias in other countries, for those reasons. This leads to a situation where the citizens of the US dissociate their country from things other countries do for no reason other than some inherent concept of "americanness". They think that dividing citizens by class is something only India or China does, they think people living in extreme poverty is different in America because anyone can make it. It's totally irrational and disconnected from the rest of the world.

brigandish 6y ago

> Also a surprising number of people in the US believe that poverty is a moral failure of some sort. I never actually understood this. A lot of what people take as "morals" is actually good economic sense wrapped up within a moral code, and even those who advocate it in that form can still sniff out the good sense from it. Strip away the morality (as we should) and the "good" behaviour is supported strongly by research, as this[1], from the left leaning Brookings Institute, shows: > poor children are more likely to make bad decisions that lead them to drop out of school, become teen parents, join gangs and break the law. > Let politicians, schoolteachers and administrators, community leaders, ministers and parents drill into children the message that in a free society, they enter adulthood with three major responsibilities: at least finish high school, get a full-time job and wait until age 21 to get married and have children. > Our research shows that of American adults who followed these three simple rules, only about 2 percent are in poverty and nearly 75 percent have joined the middle class By cutting out those bits from the whole piece it makes it sound overly harsh but still, let's not throw out the baby from the conservative's bathwater. [1] https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/three-simple-rules-poor-teens-should-follow-to-join-the-middle-class/ https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/three-simple-rules-poor-t...