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Being a cop is dangerous, but the danger is drastically overstated. Being a cop is significantly less dangerous than a bunch of other jobs that typically get ig

Being a cop is dangerous, but the danger is drastically overstated. Being a cop is significantly less dangerous than a bunch of other jobs that typically get ignored, such as construction, landscaping, being a crossing guard(!), pilot/flight engineer, roofer, gargbage collector, mechanic (several types), mechanic supervisor, or even a delivery driver. None of those other groups seem to have developed the same siege mentality that police officers have, despite having a better statistical argument for it. Even on the violence front, it's overstated. In 2020, 45 cops were shot to death on purpose, 5 shot on accident, 13 were purposefully struck by a car, and 1 died from an unspecified assault. That's 59[0] purposeful killings out of an estimated 665,280[1] police officers in America, or 8.8 per 100,000. Meanwhile COVID19 killed 221 cops, and various vehicular accidents killed 39 cops. Obviously 8.8 per 100,000 is not great, but it's far from how being a cop is portrayed in popular media. For a grim comparison, consider the risk of being murdered as a cop to the risk of being murdered as a pregnant woman. A 2005 study connecting female homicide deaths with pregnancy information came to the conclusion that the homicide rate among pregnant women might be as high as 10.5 per 100,000, or about 25% higher than the murder rate for cops. Given that the estimated domestic violence rate for police officers is 40%[3] and the known link between domestic abuse and homicide[4], a pregnant woman married to or living with a cop might have a higher chance of being murdered by her cop partner than her cop partner has of being murdered on the job. It does strike me as an awful job though. No disagreement there. 0 - https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2020 https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2020 1 - https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes333051.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes333051.htm 2 - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449445 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449445 3 - https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-officers-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-... 4 - https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/domestic-violence-murders/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/...

s1artibartfast 6y ago
Thanks for engaging. I agree that there are other jobs that are more dangerous in terms of on the job deaths. I think that an interesting distinction is that when it comes to police, the danger comes from other humans. That is to say, their threat model is people intentionally trying to kill them, opposed to workplace accidents. In this way, the police are more similar to military forces, who also have a siege mentality. While you point out that there were 59 police killings, this number may not capture the full picture. It is worth considering that there were 1000 fatal shootings by police and an estimated 2000 non-fatal shootings.[1] That is 450 per 100,000 per year. This is just the tip of the iceberg as it doesn't include shootings where nobody was injured, or violent interactions without guns. Violent nonfatal injuries and illnesses resulting in days away from work among police officers occurred at a rate of 121.7 per 100,000 FTE workers in 2018; the rate for all occupations was 7.3. [2] In one study 10% of police surveyed reported that they had killed or seriously injured someone during the first three years of their career. The average officer experiences 188 traumatic events in their career and have PTSD and depression rates 5X the general population, and the highest suicide rate of any profession.[3] For me, this paints a picture of a job where violence and hostility is the norm. I point this out not to excuse the bad behavior of some police, but increase our understanding of it. >Given that the estimated domestic violence rate for police officers is 40%[3] and the known link between domestic abuse and homicide[4], a pregnant woman married to or living with a cop might have a higher chance of being murdered than her cop spouse. This would not surprise me at all, given what I stated above. The really interesting question is WHY and what conclusions can we draw from this? https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02601-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02601-9 https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/police-2018.htm#:~:text=Police%20officers%20were%20fatally%20injured,work%20injuries%20among%20police%20officers https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/police-2018.htm#:~:text=P.... https://www.addictioncenter.com/news/2019/09/police-at-highest-risk-for-suicide-than-any-profession/ https://www.addictioncenter.com/news/2019/09/police-at-highe... https://rudermanfoundation.org/white_papers/police-officers-and-firefighters-are-more-likely-to-die-by-suicide-than-in-line-of-duty/ https://rudermanfoundation.org/white_papers/police-officers-...
- trianglem 6y ago
  To a pizza driver, a more dangerous job than being a cop, the biggest threat is another human as well. That doesn’t mean they can go around shooting undeserving people. You’re rationalizing criminal behavior.
  - s1artibartfast 6y ago
    I’m not rationalizing or endorsing anything. I’m describing the nature of the problem. We will never see any change unless people understand the problem.
    - trianglem 6y ago
      People understand the problem, all the recommended fixes are being stymied, lobbied away or plain ignored.
      - s1artibartfast 6y ago
        What solutions have >50% public support and are being ignored?
        trianglem 6y ago
        Always on body cams, ending civil forfeiture, replacement of police unions with individual liability insurance, third party review boards are just a few.
        s1artibartfast 6y ago
        First off, I think most of that is a fine start. I think the strongest are review boards and body cams, and the weakest are busting the unions and individual insurance. For the latter, I haven't seen any data showing public support over 50%. I think the most productive changes would be legalization and demilitarization of the the war on drugs. A centralized database of police violence and complaints would be the next step, and this could go hand in hand with third party review boards. Even if your proposals and mine were adopted entirely, I don't think they would resolve the fundamental problems with police violence and bring behavior in line with expectations.

s1artibartfast 6y ago

Thanks for engaging. I agree that there are other jobs that are more dangerous in terms of on the job deaths. I think that an interesting distinction is that when it comes to police, the danger comes from other humans. That is to say, their threat model is people intentionally trying to kill them, opposed to workplace accidents. In this way, the police are more similar to military forces, who also have a siege mentality. While you point out that there were 59 police killings, this number may not capture the full picture. It is worth considering that there were 1000 fatal shootings by police and an estimated 2000 non-fatal shootings.[1] That is 450 per 100,000 per year. This is just the tip of the iceberg as it doesn't include shootings where nobody was injured, or violent interactions without guns. Violent nonfatal injuries and illnesses resulting in days away from work among police officers occurred at a rate of 121.7 per 100,000 FTE workers in 2018; the rate for all occupations was 7.3. [2] In one study 10% of police surveyed reported that they had killed or seriously injured someone during the first three years of their career. The average officer experiences 188 traumatic events in their career and have PTSD and depression rates 5X the general population, and the highest suicide rate of any profession.[3] For me, this paints a picture of a job where violence and hostility is the norm. I point this out not to excuse the bad behavior of some police, but increase our understanding of it. >Given that the estimated domestic violence rate for police officers is 40%[3] and the known link between domestic abuse and homicide[4], a pregnant woman married to or living with a cop might have a higher chance of being murdered than her cop spouse. This would not surprise me at all, given what I stated above. The really interesting question is WHY and what conclusions can we draw from this? https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02601-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02601-9 https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/police-2018.htm#:~:text=Police%20officers%20were%20fatally%20injured,work%20injuries%20among%20police%20officers https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/police-2018.htm#:~:text=P.... https://www.addictioncenter.com/news/2019/09/police-at-highest-risk-for-suicide-than-any-profession/ https://www.addictioncenter.com/news/2019/09/police-at-highe... https://rudermanfoundation.org/white_papers/police-officers-and-firefighters-are-more-likely-to-die-by-suicide-than-in-line-of-duty/ https://rudermanfoundation.org/white_papers/police-officers-...

trianglem 6y ago
To a pizza driver, a more dangerous job than being a cop, the biggest threat is another human as well. That doesn’t mean they can go around shooting undeserving people. You’re rationalizing criminal behavior.
- s1artibartfast 6y ago
  I’m not rationalizing or endorsing anything. I’m describing the nature of the problem. We will never see any change unless people understand the problem.
  - trianglem 6y ago
    People understand the problem, all the recommended fixes are being stymied, lobbied away or plain ignored.
    - s1artibartfast 6y ago
      What solutions have >50% public support and are being ignored?
      - trianglem 6y ago
        Always on body cams, ending civil forfeiture, replacement of police unions with individual liability insurance, third party review boards are just a few.
        s1artibartfast 6y ago
        First off, I think most of that is a fine start. I think the strongest are review boards and body cams, and the weakest are busting the unions and individual insurance. For the latter, I haven't seen any data showing public support over 50%. I think the most productive changes would be legalization and demilitarization of the the war on drugs. A centralized database of police violence and complaints would be the next step, and this could go hand in hand with third party review boards. Even if your proposals and mine were adopted entirely, I don't think they would resolve the fundamental problems with police violence and bring behavior in line with expectations.