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> ... even Fauci, told people that masks don't work. So, this troubles me. One thing about science, of course, is that you need to be certain of your measurin

> ... even Fauci, told people that masks don't work. So, this troubles me. One thing about science, of course, is that you need to be certain of your measuring equipment, and of your observations. I cannot find any evidence that Fauci ever said that "masks don't work". I have found: * Late Feb: "at this moment, there is no need to change anything that you’re doing on a day-by-day basis" * March 8th: "There's no reason to be walking around with a mask" * March 8th: "When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face" * March: "Right now in the United States people should not be walking around with masks … You should think of healthcare providers who are needing them and the people who are ill." I see: * ~"No need to panic at this time" (Feb) * ~"Masks do not confer perfect protection, make sure to use them correctly, social distancing is still required" (Mar) * ~"Reserve PPE (e.g. N95 masks) for the people who need it most" (Mar) And shortly after this time, his recommendation changed to strongly recommending masks, when three critical things changed: asymptomatic spread was established, PPE supplies were beginning to stabilize, and testing determined that cloth masks are roughly as effective as surgical masks (not N95 masks). All of those statements and decisions strike me as reasonable, from a spokesperson for public health in that time frame. My memory of last spring is that masks were not recommended for the general public, but the clear message was that they do work, otherwise they would not be recommended for health workers. I do not ever remember any non-political health professionals saying that masks do not work. So it troubles me to see it repeated ad nauseam that Fauci said such a thing. If I have missed something, please help me out.

WillPostForFood 6y ago
"When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face" What do you think is being communicated here? It makes you feel better, but there are unintended consequences is worse than they don't work, it is saying they are worse than nothing. Around the same time the Surgeon General more explicitly said they don't work. “They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if health care providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!” Which was an absurd statement at the time - if they are not effective for the public, why would health care providers need them. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/health/coronavirus-n95-face-masks.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/health/coronavirus-n95-fa...
- quesera 6y ago
  This a classic communication error. Media can't handle subtlety of message. It's a mistake Fauci should not make, being a decades-long expert. But I hear, and I heard at the time, "Masks help, but they are not perfect, and if you use them in the obviously-wrong way, they are useless or harmful". Which aligns with my understanding of every tool used for any purpose. The Surgeon General, OTOH, was never a person to be taken seriously. But I don't blame Fauci for that.
  - nmfisher 6y ago
    > The Surgeon General, OTOH, was never a person to be taken seriously. But I don't blame Fauci for that. Why? I'm not from the USA, so obviously I don't understand the specifics of that position.
    - quesera 6y ago
      The US Surgeon General is a political appointee, with a largely ceremonial role and little policy influence. Some have been better than others, but they mostly serve as a mouthpiece for the administration's agenda as it relates to health-adjacent matters. As such, when the President does not take a health matter seriously (historically: AIDS, opioids, obesity, guns, tobacco, mental health, drunk driving; newly: COVID-19), the Surgeon General is not to be taken seriously.
  - WillPostForFood 6y ago
    It wasn't a communication error, and the media just reported what he said. It was the intention of Fauci to tamp down demand for masks to allow supply to flow to the medical community instead of to the public. He said as much in July. "I don't regret anything I said then because in the context of the time in which I said it, it was correct. We were told in our task force meetings that we have a serious problem with the lack of PPEs," https://www.businessinsider.com/fauci-doesnt-regret-advising-against-masks-early-in-pandemic-2020-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/fauci-doesnt-regret-advising... The only difference between Fauci and Adams is the Fauci is a better liar - he gave himself a little wiggle room to justify what he said.
mcguire 6y ago
As I've not been commuting for a couple of years, I am way behind in my podcasts. Just this weekend, I listened to the March 10, 2020 episode of "Naked Scientists" (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/ https://www.thenakedscientists.com/), a British radio science show from Cambridge. Chris Smith, a virologist, (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/users/chris-smith https://www.thenakedscientists.com/users/chris-smith), at that time, said to buy beer rather than masks; you'll enjoy the beer and it'll protect you as well as a mask. His concerns were that (1) cloth masks wouldn't help, and (2) that wearing masks incorrectly wouldn't help either. He was wrong about (1), but (2) is still a problem. I'm sure I'll have opportunity to provide updates as I get further along. :-) The Nature podcast didn't get on the mask bandwagon until early June, when they had an interview on the effectiveness of masks in this specific case. No one I've seen has said that medical masks don't work.
fitzie 6y ago
saying that masks work, is a tad simplistic. there are many types of masks, and while they have their benefits there is plenty of evidence that mask wearing has not inhibited the virus from spreading in the population. there is little evidence that the casual masks that are being worn have significantly reduce the risk of exposure. fauci was well justified when he said before that mask wearing isn't the solution to this pandemic, but now any nuanced discussion is not tolerated, which, perhaps, is the reason people aren't trusting the science. another reason is that politicians are making arbitrary decisions claiming it is what science (facts and data) told them to do.
blub 6y ago
Maybe the population wouldn't have to reserve N95 masks for medical personnel if: * the production hadn't been outsourced to China which then decided to ban exports while also accepting the PPE donations of other countries * the government would have noticed that there's a pandemic brewing, and instead of saying "nothing to see here" would have ramped up PPE production or at least procured PPE from the market. * failing all of the above, at least instituted an export stop so that the remaining PPE wouldn't have been bought from under their noses. But yes, when one fails so utterly, one has to end up begging the people to work against their own interests with predictable results. And yes, Fauci and the surgeon general lied. Nothing ambiguous about it, even if they were trying to save PPE for medical personnel.
- DanBC 6y ago
  Can you show me the peer reviewed studies that you think Fauci etc showed have used to recommend mask wearing in the general population? We had lots of studies around mask wearing, and most of them really struggled to show any kind of benefit.
  - blub 6y ago
    Whether they work for the general population is maybe a concern for Fauci, the government and the odd HN commenter. The message was that they don't work to protect individuals from the virus, hence they should not be bought by normal people. That's obviously false. And an individual will be first and foremost concerned about their own safety, not if they can single-handedly stop the pandemic.
    - DanBC 6y ago
      > That's obviously false. It's not obviously false, because there were studies available at the time that showed masks did not work to protect individuals, especially members of the public. But, again, I'd be interested to read any studies you have that were 1) available at the time and 2) showed benefit of wearing masks.
      - 6y ago

WillPostForFood 6y ago

"When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face" What do you think is being communicated here? It makes you feel better, but there are unintended consequences is worse than they don't work, it is saying they are worse than nothing. Around the same time the Surgeon General more explicitly said they don't work. “They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if health care providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!” Which was an absurd statement at the time - if they are not effective for the public, why would health care providers need them. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/health/coronavirus-n95-face-masks.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/health/coronavirus-n95-fa...

quesera 6y ago
This a classic communication error. Media can't handle subtlety of message. It's a mistake Fauci should not make, being a decades-long expert. But I hear, and I heard at the time, "Masks help, but they are not perfect, and if you use them in the obviously-wrong way, they are useless or harmful". Which aligns with my understanding of every tool used for any purpose. The Surgeon General, OTOH, was never a person to be taken seriously. But I don't blame Fauci for that.
- nmfisher 6y ago
  > The Surgeon General, OTOH, was never a person to be taken seriously. But I don't blame Fauci for that. Why? I'm not from the USA, so obviously I don't understand the specifics of that position.
  - quesera 6y ago
    The US Surgeon General is a political appointee, with a largely ceremonial role and little policy influence. Some have been better than others, but they mostly serve as a mouthpiece for the administration's agenda as it relates to health-adjacent matters. As such, when the President does not take a health matter seriously (historically: AIDS, opioids, obesity, guns, tobacco, mental health, drunk driving; newly: COVID-19), the Surgeon General is not to be taken seriously.
- WillPostForFood 6y ago
  It wasn't a communication error, and the media just reported what he said. It was the intention of Fauci to tamp down demand for masks to allow supply to flow to the medical community instead of to the public. He said as much in July. "I don't regret anything I said then because in the context of the time in which I said it, it was correct. We were told in our task force meetings that we have a serious problem with the lack of PPEs," https://www.businessinsider.com/fauci-doesnt-regret-advising-against-masks-early-in-pandemic-2020-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/fauci-doesnt-regret-advising... The only difference between Fauci and Adams is the Fauci is a better liar - he gave himself a little wiggle room to justify what he said.

mcguire 6y ago

As I've not been commuting for a couple of years, I am way behind in my podcasts. Just this weekend, I listened to the March 10, 2020 episode of "Naked Scientists" (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/ https://www.thenakedscientists.com/), a British radio science show from Cambridge. Chris Smith, a virologist, (https://www.thenakedscientists.com/users/chris-smith https://www.thenakedscientists.com/users/chris-smith), at that time, said to buy beer rather than masks; you'll enjoy the beer and it'll protect you as well as a mask. His concerns were that (1) cloth masks wouldn't help, and (2) that wearing masks incorrectly wouldn't help either. He was wrong about (1), but (2) is still a problem. I'm sure I'll have opportunity to provide updates as I get further along. :-) The Nature podcast didn't get on the mask bandwagon until early June, when they had an interview on the effectiveness of masks in this specific case. No one I've seen has said that medical masks don't work.

fitzie 6y ago

saying that masks work, is a tad simplistic. there are many types of masks, and while they have their benefits there is plenty of evidence that mask wearing has not inhibited the virus from spreading in the population. there is little evidence that the casual masks that are being worn have significantly reduce the risk of exposure. fauci was well justified when he said before that mask wearing isn't the solution to this pandemic, but now any nuanced discussion is not tolerated, which, perhaps, is the reason people aren't trusting the science. another reason is that politicians are making arbitrary decisions claiming it is what science (facts and data) told them to do.

blub 6y ago

Maybe the population wouldn't have to reserve N95 masks for medical personnel if: * the production hadn't been outsourced to China which then decided to ban exports while also accepting the PPE donations of other countries * the government would have noticed that there's a pandemic brewing, and instead of saying "nothing to see here" would have ramped up PPE production or at least procured PPE from the market. * failing all of the above, at least instituted an export stop so that the remaining PPE wouldn't have been bought from under their noses. But yes, when one fails so utterly, one has to end up begging the people to work against their own interests with predictable results. And yes, Fauci and the surgeon general lied. Nothing ambiguous about it, even if they were trying to save PPE for medical personnel.

DanBC 6y ago
Can you show me the peer reviewed studies that you think Fauci etc showed have used to recommend mask wearing in the general population? We had lots of studies around mask wearing, and most of them really struggled to show any kind of benefit.
- blub 6y ago
  Whether they work for the general population is maybe a concern for Fauci, the government and the odd HN commenter. The message was that they don't work to protect individuals from the virus, hence they should not be bought by normal people. That's obviously false. And an individual will be first and foremost concerned about their own safety, not if they can single-handedly stop the pandemic.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    > That's obviously false. It's not obviously false, because there were studies available at the time that showed masks did not work to protect individuals, especially members of the public. But, again, I'd be interested to read any studies you have that were 1) available at the time and 2) showed benefit of wearing masks.
    - 6y ago