3 ms·

This really adds nothing to the conversation. Nor does it provide any further insight into my pondering of what if.

BrendanEich 6y ago
I think it's a good point because Scheme was not standardized in practice or widely taught in 1995. So whatever happened, it's likely MS would have prevailed with VBScript, which was a real threat and did ship in IE3-4 (I forget when they dropped it).
- skissane 6y ago
  It would be an interesting parallel universe to visit, where the Web runs on VBScript instead of JS. Would we have had node.vb? VBScript, the syntax is aesthetically less pleasing, but there is no reason why it couldn't do anything that JavaScript can do, if more verbosely. (Of course, the semantics are inferior as well, but if VBScript had taken off, its semantics would likely have been improved at some point.)
  - AzzieElbab 6y ago
    I count myself lucky because I don’t really know vbscript. Does legacy vb have a notion of first order functions and async?
    - skissane 6y ago
      No it doesn't. But there is every reason to expect those features would have been added at some point if VBScript had been more popular. Indeed, if we look at VBScript's cousin, VB.NET, we find both first order functions and async functions, at least in its newer versions. (Keep in mind that those features weren't present in older versions of JavaScript either. Async functions were only added in ECMAScript 2016. First order functions have been there from the start, but ECMAScript 2015 greatly improved the syntax for anonymous functions with its introduction of arrow syntax.)
      - BrendanEich 6y ago
        In the multiverse of madness, you are welcome to the universe where we had jquery.vbs ;-).
        the_only_law 6y ago
        > to the universe where we had jquery.vbs ;-) I'm genuinely terrified.
      - AzzieElbab 6y ago
        by async I did not mean syntax sugar. More like way to do async via continuations/callbacks
        skissane 6y ago
        If all you mean by "async" is callbacks, then VBScript already has those. In VBScript that runs under Windows Script Host, callbacks are implemented using the WScript.ConnectObject method. (I'm not sure about VBScript running under IE or classic ASP, if they could use the same method or had to use a different one. But anyway, if VBScript can do it in one context but not another, that would be a deficiency they could have easily fixed if there were a demand.)
- cccc4alll 6y ago
  My guess is MS had plans for web dominance. Use Windows to push IE and VBScript and become gatekeeper to the web. Tightly couple Windows and web and have Windows become the web platform. Until, US anti-trust investigation and law suit against MS. Which hampered MS enough to open the web business to smaller competitors, like Google, Apple, etc. The fact that Apple now completely owns iOS and is gatekeeper to mobile app store is ironic. And, Google owns online ad services and is gatekeeper to online ad space is also ironic.
  - BrendanEich 6y ago
    No need to guess, from https://thisdayintechhistory.com/05/26/bill-gates-internet-tidal-wave/ https://thisdayintechhistory.com/05/26/bill-gates-internet-t... to all the material discovered during US v. Microsoft, we know MS's plan was exactly what you said, after killing Netscape to avoid it becoming the new cross-OS runtime for apps. Good point about MS leaving the Web fallow, which missed big opportunities Google and Apple (iPhone original app model was Web-only; native came almost a year later for games and for want of WebAssembly :-/).

I think it's a good point because Scheme was not standardized in practice or widely taught in 1995. So whatever happened, it's likely MS would have prevailed with VBScript, which was a real threat and did ship in IE3-4 (I forget when they dropped it).

skissane 6y ago
It would be an interesting parallel universe to visit, where the Web runs on VBScript instead of JS. Would we have had node.vb? VBScript, the syntax is aesthetically less pleasing, but there is no reason why it couldn't do anything that JavaScript can do, if more verbosely. (Of course, the semantics are inferior as well, but if VBScript had taken off, its semantics would likely have been improved at some point.)
- AzzieElbab 6y ago
  I count myself lucky because I don’t really know vbscript. Does legacy vb have a notion of first order functions and async?
  - skissane 6y ago
    No it doesn't. But there is every reason to expect those features would have been added at some point if VBScript had been more popular. Indeed, if we look at VBScript's cousin, VB.NET, we find both first order functions and async functions, at least in its newer versions. (Keep in mind that those features weren't present in older versions of JavaScript either. Async functions were only added in ECMAScript 2016. First order functions have been there from the start, but ECMAScript 2015 greatly improved the syntax for anonymous functions with its introduction of arrow syntax.)
    - BrendanEich 6y ago
      In the multiverse of madness, you are welcome to the universe where we had jquery.vbs ;-).
      - the_only_law 6y ago
        > to the universe where we had jquery.vbs ;-) I'm genuinely terrified.
    - AzzieElbab 6y ago
      by async I did not mean syntax sugar. More like way to do async via continuations/callbacks
      - skissane 6y ago
        If all you mean by "async" is callbacks, then VBScript already has those. In VBScript that runs under Windows Script Host, callbacks are implemented using the WScript.ConnectObject method. (I'm not sure about VBScript running under IE or classic ASP, if they could use the same method or had to use a different one. But anyway, if VBScript can do it in one context but not another, that would be a deficiency they could have easily fixed if there were a demand.)
cccc4alll 6y ago
My guess is MS had plans for web dominance. Use Windows to push IE and VBScript and become gatekeeper to the web. Tightly couple Windows and web and have Windows become the web platform. Until, US anti-trust investigation and law suit against MS. Which hampered MS enough to open the web business to smaller competitors, like Google, Apple, etc. The fact that Apple now completely owns iOS and is gatekeeper to mobile app store is ironic. And, Google owns online ad services and is gatekeeper to online ad space is also ironic.
- BrendanEich 6y ago
  No need to guess, from https://thisdayintechhistory.com/05/26/bill-gates-internet-tidal-wave/ https://thisdayintechhistory.com/05/26/bill-gates-internet-t... to all the material discovered during US v. Microsoft, we know MS's plan was exactly what you said, after killing Netscape to avoid it becoming the new cross-OS runtime for apps. Good point about MS leaving the Web fallow, which missed big opportunities Google and Apple (iPhone original app model was Web-only; native came almost a year later for games and for want of WebAssembly :-/).