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Even in high performing schools, it is easy to find variance in child outcomes dependent on teacher. In nearly all schools, the “good” and the “bad” teachers a

Even in high performing schools, it is easy to find variance in child outcomes dependent on teacher. In nearly all schools, the “good” and the “bad” teachers are well known. Teachers unions having negotiated tenure after just a few years of employment prevent the firing of “bad” teachers. In poor performing schools, there are multiple reasons for poor observed outcomes. None of these need to happen. Keep small group learning and have adults support learning. But there is no reason for a teacher to explain something when Khan academy has already done it and often done it far better.

throwaway6734 6y ago
Do you have experience teaching a group of 10+ students? >But there is no reason for a teacher to explain something when Khan academy has already done it and often done it far better. You're skipping the often difficult task of getting the students to properly engage with khan academy.
- rgblambda 6y ago
  >>You're skipping the often difficult task of getting the students to properly engage with khan academy. As someone who is very much in favour of online education, this is still a pretty big unanswered question. My response to that would be to ask to what extent this is being done in the classroom. Much like in the workplace prior to covid, people mistake physical presence for actually doing work. And if the classroom is then replaced with online learning with the ability to play back lessons and study at your own pace, how do you define "engagement"?
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  That's not necessarily a negative thing, you're forcing students to learn to engage with content online without someone spoon-feeding them. I think my interest in programming as a kid pushed me to online learning and taught me to be independent. Most of my friends barely went beyond what the teacher covered. I still think that school as an environment where you see and interact with other students and tutors is useful - but merely for a social purpose. Front lessons can't disappear early enough.
  - throwaway6734 6y ago
    >you're forcing students to learn to engage with content online without someone spoon-feeding them. How do you force them to engage with the content?
    - madacol 6y ago
      You don't!, forcing it, when the student isn't ready or doesn't care, is the source of students becoming numb to subjects and in some cases hate it for the rest of their lives without ever understanding them
      - throwaway6734 6y ago
        If you don't need to teach non-interested students the material, then the job becomes a thousand times easier.
        madacol 6y ago
        Exactly!. Is there any evidence that forcing content increases long-term life success to students?, Or is there at least some study on-going? Schools have many impact vectors, forcing content learning is just one of them, and not necessarily a good one, I'm biased into thinking it's actually bad but it's overcompensated by its side-effects: place of gathering, exposure to higher-than-average smart people (teachers), introductions to some branch of knowledge, etc, and of course, forced-content consuming from interested students that probably would get better results from a self-paced learning system like Khan-Academy
- testfoobar 6y ago
  The real problem is that the demand for good teachers far exceeds the supply. As a result large numbers of kids are left under educated. Teachers unions deny the existence of bad teachers. The clearest evidence for bad teachers is the existence of good teachers. Similarly, the clearest evidence of bad schools is the existence of good schools. Interestingly, you can find bad teachers and bad schools at all points of per pupil spending. Money is an important variable, but not the only significant variable effecting student outcomes. I think we should radically rethink teaching. We can support much better outcomes for far more kids by reducing the dependance on the quality of your teacher, school and school district. I think it would be easier to get kids to engage with Khan and online instruction in general than to fix failing school districts and failing schools. Use the schools as support. Many are already failing at their primary task as first line instructors - just take it off their plate.
  - Viliam1234 6y ago
    > The real problem is that the demand for good teachers far exceeds the supply. The current teaching model simply doesn't scale. It worked well in the past, when most people got like 4 years of elementary school, and a few selected ones studied longer. Now we want everyone to sit at the school desk as long as possible, and preferably in small classes. (Yes, I understand why small classes are better. I am just saying we can't afford them for everyone without compromising on teachers' quality.) Just guessing the numbers: if people live 80 years on average, and spend maybe 15 years on average at school, that is like 20% of population being students. If you want 1 teacher per 20 students, that is 1% of population being teachers. We all have an idea of what an "ideal teacher" should look like. And some of us actually met someone like that in real life. But 1% of population having the required skills? Also, there are other professions competing for talent. If you make all good programmers teach computer science, who is going to write code? Similarly, who will do surgery, etc. What currently happens is that rich people (plus a few lucky non-rich people) succeed to get the best teachers for their kids... and the rest have to deal with what is left for them. With sources like Khan Academy, everyone on this planet could have a top-quality education. You only need to make the great video lecture once. It can even be translated to other languages by other people, who don't need to be good scientists or educators themselves, just good translators. Education could be free like, dunno, Linux or something. And yes, having a good human teacher is better than watching video. I am just saying it is a luxury that most students don't get. But everyone could watch the great video. So maybe we could change the school to be more like... uhm, maybe watching the videos together at school, and then having a debate about them? Then doing the related online tests, and again having a debate about what went wrong? We already accept written textbooks. We should do the same with videos.
ntsplnkv2 6y ago
> But there is no reason for a teacher to explain something when Khan academy has already done it and often done it far better. Citation is needed here. I'm not buying that Khan Academy has better outcomes just because this is HN and the internet is cool. Where is the evidence that Khan Academy is better?

throwaway6734 6y ago

Do you have experience teaching a group of 10+ students? >But there is no reason for a teacher to explain something when Khan academy has already done it and often done it far better. You're skipping the often difficult task of getting the students to properly engage with khan academy.

rgblambda 6y ago
>>You're skipping the often difficult task of getting the students to properly engage with khan academy. As someone who is very much in favour of online education, this is still a pretty big unanswered question. My response to that would be to ask to what extent this is being done in the classroom. Much like in the workplace prior to covid, people mistake physical presence for actually doing work. And if the classroom is then replaced with online learning with the ability to play back lessons and study at your own pace, how do you define "engagement"?
jokethrowaway 6y ago
That's not necessarily a negative thing, you're forcing students to learn to engage with content online without someone spoon-feeding them. I think my interest in programming as a kid pushed me to online learning and taught me to be independent. Most of my friends barely went beyond what the teacher covered. I still think that school as an environment where you see and interact with other students and tutors is useful - but merely for a social purpose. Front lessons can't disappear early enough.
- throwaway6734 6y ago
  >you're forcing students to learn to engage with content online without someone spoon-feeding them. How do you force them to engage with the content?
  - madacol 6y ago
    You don't!, forcing it, when the student isn't ready or doesn't care, is the source of students becoming numb to subjects and in some cases hate it for the rest of their lives without ever understanding them
    - throwaway6734 6y ago
      If you don't need to teach non-interested students the material, then the job becomes a thousand times easier.
      - madacol 6y ago
        Exactly!. Is there any evidence that forcing content increases long-term life success to students?, Or is there at least some study on-going? Schools have many impact vectors, forcing content learning is just one of them, and not necessarily a good one, I'm biased into thinking it's actually bad but it's overcompensated by its side-effects: place of gathering, exposure to higher-than-average smart people (teachers), introductions to some branch of knowledge, etc, and of course, forced-content consuming from interested students that probably would get better results from a self-paced learning system like Khan-Academy
testfoobar 6y ago
The real problem is that the demand for good teachers far exceeds the supply. As a result large numbers of kids are left under educated. Teachers unions deny the existence of bad teachers. The clearest evidence for bad teachers is the existence of good teachers. Similarly, the clearest evidence of bad schools is the existence of good schools. Interestingly, you can find bad teachers and bad schools at all points of per pupil spending. Money is an important variable, but not the only significant variable effecting student outcomes. I think we should radically rethink teaching. We can support much better outcomes for far more kids by reducing the dependance on the quality of your teacher, school and school district. I think it would be easier to get kids to engage with Khan and online instruction in general than to fix failing school districts and failing schools. Use the schools as support. Many are already failing at their primary task as first line instructors - just take it off their plate.
- Viliam1234 6y ago
  > The real problem is that the demand for good teachers far exceeds the supply. The current teaching model simply doesn't scale. It worked well in the past, when most people got like 4 years of elementary school, and a few selected ones studied longer. Now we want everyone to sit at the school desk as long as possible, and preferably in small classes. (Yes, I understand why small classes are better. I am just saying we can't afford them for everyone without compromising on teachers' quality.) Just guessing the numbers: if people live 80 years on average, and spend maybe 15 years on average at school, that is like 20% of population being students. If you want 1 teacher per 20 students, that is 1% of population being teachers. We all have an idea of what an "ideal teacher" should look like. And some of us actually met someone like that in real life. But 1% of population having the required skills? Also, there are other professions competing for talent. If you make all good programmers teach computer science, who is going to write code? Similarly, who will do surgery, etc. What currently happens is that rich people (plus a few lucky non-rich people) succeed to get the best teachers for their kids... and the rest have to deal with what is left for them. With sources like Khan Academy, everyone on this planet could have a top-quality education. You only need to make the great video lecture once. It can even be translated to other languages by other people, who don't need to be good scientists or educators themselves, just good translators. Education could be free like, dunno, Linux or something. And yes, having a good human teacher is better than watching video. I am just saying it is a luxury that most students don't get. But everyone could watch the great video. So maybe we could change the school to be more like... uhm, maybe watching the videos together at school, and then having a debate about them? Then doing the related online tests, and again having a debate about what went wrong? We already accept written textbooks. We should do the same with videos.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago

> But there is no reason for a teacher to explain something when Khan academy has already done it and often done it far better. Citation is needed here. I'm not buying that Khan Academy has better outcomes just because this is HN and the internet is cool. Where is the evidence that Khan Academy is better?