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The Covid crisis has exposed a lot of the disaster in public education. For many kids, the quality of education they receive is a function of the quality of th

The Covid crisis has exposed a lot of the disaster in public education. For many kids, the quality of education they receive is a function of the quality of the school and the quality of the teacher. This is non-sensical. Kids can learn from online sources. So why should someone's education be tied to their school district or teacher quality? I would love to have the local school system provide lab space, athletics, support services and one-on-one tutoring as necessary. But the bulk should be delivered online. Sal Khan is comprehensive and brilliant, but perhaps someone out there is better at chemistry or art history. Regardless, every kid should be exposed to the "best" teacher of the subject. Why should a child's Algebra education be school or teacher dependent, when the best Algebra teacher on the planet is just 256kb/s away.

throwaway6734 6y ago
I think you're massively underestimating how difficult it is to teach students and how important the bond between student and teacher is. Online resources are incredibly valuable as supplementary material but they can't replace the culture and bond of small group learning
- testfoobar 6y ago
  Even in high performing schools, it is easy to find variance in child outcomes dependent on teacher. In nearly all schools, the “good” and the “bad” teachers are well known. Teachers unions having negotiated tenure after just a few years of employment prevent the firing of “bad” teachers. In poor performing schools, there are multiple reasons for poor observed outcomes. None of these need to happen. Keep small group learning and have adults support learning. But there is no reason for a teacher to explain something when Khan academy has already done it and often done it far better.
  - throwaway6734 6y ago
    Do you have experience teaching a group of 10+ students? >But there is no reason for a teacher to explain something when Khan academy has already done it and often done it far better. You're skipping the often difficult task of getting the students to properly engage with khan academy.
    - rgblambda 6y ago
      >>You're skipping the often difficult task of getting the students to properly engage with khan academy. As someone who is very much in favour of online education, this is still a pretty big unanswered question. My response to that would be to ask to what extent this is being done in the classroom. Much like in the workplace prior to covid, people mistake physical presence for actually doing work. And if the classroom is then replaced with online learning with the ability to play back lessons and study at your own pace, how do you define "engagement"?
    - jokethrowaway 6y ago
      That's not necessarily a negative thing, you're forcing students to learn to engage with content online without someone spoon-feeding them. I think my interest in programming as a kid pushed me to online learning and taught me to be independent. Most of my friends barely went beyond what the teacher covered. I still think that school as an environment where you see and interact with other students and tutors is useful - but merely for a social purpose. Front lessons can't disappear early enough.
      - throwaway6734 6y ago
        >you're forcing students to learn to engage with content online without someone spoon-feeding them. How do you force them to engage with the content?
        madacol 6y ago
        You don't!, forcing it, when the student isn't ready or doesn't care, is the source of students becoming numb to subjects and in some cases hate it for the rest of their lives without ever understanding them
        throwaway6734 6y ago
        If you don't need to teach non-interested students the material, then the job becomes a thousand times easier.
  - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
    > But there is no reason for a teacher to explain something when Khan academy has already done it and often done it far better. Citation is needed here. I'm not buying that Khan Academy has better outcomes just because this is HN and the internet is cool. Where is the evidence that Khan Academy is better?
- ekianjo 6y ago
  Yet many kids have no problem learning a lot of things by pulling stuff they check online. Lets not pretend all kids are alike.
- specialist 6y ago
  Word. I volunteered regularly in my son's classroom, K thru 6. Whatever ninja skills the gifted teachers have, I don't have it. The ability to command and direct the attention of dozens of young minds is a fusion of symphony conductor, improv comedy, and jedi mind control. Rant: Any one thinking it's easy to teach should try it sometime. I get especially fluffed up by would be reformers who've never taught. eg Gates Foundation. While I appreciate the interest, deploy all y'all whackadoodle ideas against your own kids before torturing the rest of us. Source: Mom was a special ed teacher for 20 years. Incredible how many people knew so much more about how to do her job than herself.
  - throwaway6734 6y ago
    >I volunteered regularly in my son's classroom, K thru 6. Whatever ninja skills the gifted teachers have, I don't have it. That makes two of us. Some of my students referred to it as The Power.
jph00 6y ago
That's pretty much what https://www.modulo.app/ https://www.modulo.app/ provides. Small groups online (1-5 kids) with each kid doing apps/videos at their own pace, and getting help from the tutor as needed. Works great for our daughter. She's made a lot of friends thru it and accelerated academically a huge amount. (I have no financial interest - just a customer.)
dehrmann 6y ago
It's a lot harder to be mentored and inspired by a Youtube video than a good teacher who cares, even if you only have one of those teachers per year.
- testfoobar 6y ago
  The demand for “good” teachers far exceeds the supply.
  - alexashka 6y ago
    No, it's not a supply problem, it's a government subsidy distorting the market problem. Get rid of government subsidies for education and let people choose what education they get, where and when. You'll quickly find plenty of willing, able and capable teachers. While we're at it, get rid of minimum wage laws so that people who don't want to pay to learn, can do apprenticeship programs and instead get rewarded for their efforts.
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  I've been inspired by fitness instructors doing workouts dvd and I still think fondly of them while I can't remember any of my high school professors. I see a lot of people going crazy after YouTube content creators so I'm sure it's viable for education as well.
  - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
    I can't remember a single person I've watched on youtube educationally. I hate it - it's too easy to get distracted. When I'm in class, I can focus. On my computer I'll end up somewhere else and right quick.
sokoloff 6y ago
> For many kids, the quality of education they receive is a function of the quality of the school and the quality of the teacher. I would agree if you strengthened this to "for almost all kids..." Effective primary education is greatly dependent on the bond between the students and the teachers (IMO). Yes, you can learn your times tables from an online lecture and online drill program, but you can't replace elementary school with it. Secondary education likely has less of this property, but still way, way above zero. There is no singular "best" teacher of a subject. There might be one who is best for many learners, but I believe a large element of education is finding exactly the student's "frontier" and repeatedly crossing it, slowly expanding that frontier while spending enough time inside for reinforcement, confidence-building, and repeated checking that you're right about the frontier. It's heavily labor intensive and personalized, which is why it's local and why it's school and teacher dependent.
Schiphol 6y ago
Most kids don't have adequate space or computers for this. They also need the school lunch. Most parents work during school hours.

throwaway6734 6y ago

I think you're massively underestimating how difficult it is to teach students and how important the bond between student and teacher is. Online resources are incredibly valuable as supplementary material but they can't replace the culture and bond of small group learning

testfoobar 6y ago
Even in high performing schools, it is easy to find variance in child outcomes dependent on teacher. In nearly all schools, the “good” and the “bad” teachers are well known. Teachers unions having negotiated tenure after just a few years of employment prevent the firing of “bad” teachers. In poor performing schools, there are multiple reasons for poor observed outcomes. None of these need to happen. Keep small group learning and have adults support learning. But there is no reason for a teacher to explain something when Khan academy has already done it and often done it far better.
- throwaway6734 6y ago
  Do you have experience teaching a group of 10+ students? >But there is no reason for a teacher to explain something when Khan academy has already done it and often done it far better. You're skipping the often difficult task of getting the students to properly engage with khan academy.
  - rgblambda 6y ago
    >>You're skipping the often difficult task of getting the students to properly engage with khan academy. As someone who is very much in favour of online education, this is still a pretty big unanswered question. My response to that would be to ask to what extent this is being done in the classroom. Much like in the workplace prior to covid, people mistake physical presence for actually doing work. And if the classroom is then replaced with online learning with the ability to play back lessons and study at your own pace, how do you define "engagement"?
  - jokethrowaway 6y ago
    That's not necessarily a negative thing, you're forcing students to learn to engage with content online without someone spoon-feeding them. I think my interest in programming as a kid pushed me to online learning and taught me to be independent. Most of my friends barely went beyond what the teacher covered. I still think that school as an environment where you see and interact with other students and tutors is useful - but merely for a social purpose. Front lessons can't disappear early enough.
    - throwaway6734 6y ago
      >you're forcing students to learn to engage with content online without someone spoon-feeding them. How do you force them to engage with the content?
      - madacol 6y ago
        You don't!, forcing it, when the student isn't ready or doesn't care, is the source of students becoming numb to subjects and in some cases hate it for the rest of their lives without ever understanding them
        throwaway6734 6y ago
        If you don't need to teach non-interested students the material, then the job becomes a thousand times easier.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  > But there is no reason for a teacher to explain something when Khan academy has already done it and often done it far better. Citation is needed here. I'm not buying that Khan Academy has better outcomes just because this is HN and the internet is cool. Where is the evidence that Khan Academy is better?
ekianjo 6y ago
Yet many kids have no problem learning a lot of things by pulling stuff they check online. Lets not pretend all kids are alike.
specialist 6y ago
Word. I volunteered regularly in my son's classroom, K thru 6. Whatever ninja skills the gifted teachers have, I don't have it. The ability to command and direct the attention of dozens of young minds is a fusion of symphony conductor, improv comedy, and jedi mind control. Rant: Any one thinking it's easy to teach should try it sometime. I get especially fluffed up by would be reformers who've never taught. eg Gates Foundation. While I appreciate the interest, deploy all y'all whackadoodle ideas against your own kids before torturing the rest of us. Source: Mom was a special ed teacher for 20 years. Incredible how many people knew so much more about how to do her job than herself.
- throwaway6734 6y ago
  >I volunteered regularly in my son's classroom, K thru 6. Whatever ninja skills the gifted teachers have, I don't have it. That makes two of us. Some of my students referred to it as The Power.

jph00 6y ago

That's pretty much what https://www.modulo.app/ https://www.modulo.app/ provides. Small groups online (1-5 kids) with each kid doing apps/videos at their own pace, and getting help from the tutor as needed. Works great for our daughter. She's made a lot of friends thru it and accelerated academically a huge amount. (I have no financial interest - just a customer.)

dehrmann 6y ago

It's a lot harder to be mentored and inspired by a Youtube video than a good teacher who cares, even if you only have one of those teachers per year.

testfoobar 6y ago
The demand for “good” teachers far exceeds the supply.
- alexashka 6y ago
  No, it's not a supply problem, it's a government subsidy distorting the market problem. Get rid of government subsidies for education and let people choose what education they get, where and when. You'll quickly find plenty of willing, able and capable teachers. While we're at it, get rid of minimum wage laws so that people who don't want to pay to learn, can do apprenticeship programs and instead get rewarded for their efforts.
jokethrowaway 6y ago
I've been inspired by fitness instructors doing workouts dvd and I still think fondly of them while I can't remember any of my high school professors. I see a lot of people going crazy after YouTube content creators so I'm sure it's viable for education as well.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  I can't remember a single person I've watched on youtube educationally. I hate it - it's too easy to get distracted. When I'm in class, I can focus. On my computer I'll end up somewhere else and right quick.

sokoloff 6y ago

> For many kids, the quality of education they receive is a function of the quality of the school and the quality of the teacher. I would agree if you strengthened this to "for almost all kids..." Effective primary education is greatly dependent on the bond between the students and the teachers (IMO). Yes, you can learn your times tables from an online lecture and online drill program, but you can't replace elementary school with it. Secondary education likely has less of this property, but still way, way above zero. There is no singular "best" teacher of a subject. There might be one who is best for many learners, but I believe a large element of education is finding exactly the student's "frontier" and repeatedly crossing it, slowly expanding that frontier while spending enough time inside for reinforcement, confidence-building, and repeated checking that you're right about the frontier. It's heavily labor intensive and personalized, which is why it's local and why it's school and teacher dependent.

Schiphol 6y ago

Most kids don't have adequate space or computers for this. They also need the school lunch. Most parents work during school hours.