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There must be some uncomfortable truth in regards to police officers, the type of thing you only understand if you are responsible for leading/paying them. Cle

There must be some uncomfortable truth in regards to police officers, the type of thing you only understand if you are responsible for leading/paying them. Clearly police officers are above the law in America. Clearly blue lives matter/thin blue line is a very deep cultural problem within the force. Clearly police unions protect people who shouldn't be protected. Clearly police officers protect their peers when their peers commit crime. Clearly there is some level of infiltration by white supremacists into police forces. Clearly police in major cities do not do a very good job of de-escalation at all. The average citizen has almost certainly seen a video of a police officer acting outrageously and not ending up in prison. Everyone here has theories that will solve it: end qualified immunity, fix incentives, destroy police unions. Most likely none of us are experts. I can't shake the feeling that there is some truth or barrier to this problem that the average person doesn't know about/the government doesn't think we can handle being told. If nothing else any reform must have the blessing of police officers. If police officers quit en masse that is something society at large isn't willing to tolerate. Just like the old slashdot e-mail reform meme of ol' (https://yro.slashdot.org/story/04/04/06/1629219/analysis-of-spam-and-a-proposed-solution https://yro.slashdot.org/story/04/04/06/1629219/analysis-of-...), I suspect we need a similar meme for police reform.

itronitron 6y ago
>> Clearly police officers are above the law in America. I think many law enforcement officers view themselves as 'the law' and therefore believe that the ends justify the means. The popular, although dated, culture backs them up on that and there are many laws that favor law enforcement over suspects. Police in the US think they are above the law because in many ways they are. The good ones know how to find the balance and keep the peace.
- aneemzic 6y ago
  I guess it stems from a time when all you really had to work with was physical evidence and the only records being what officers had written down. So it really wouldn't have worked any other way. A suspect is always going to say whatever makes them seem innocent. "I wasn't holding that knife when you arrested me" would be impossible to disprove if the suspect was wearing gloves at the time or forensic evidence wasn't yet available. So in some ways the officers word had to hold more weight. It seems like the only solution is for every single interaction to be digitally recorded.
Natsu 6y ago
The interesting thing is that they only stopped him for a few minutes and, once they realized he wasn't suspicious, declined to do anything and let him go, then neglected to return his phone until it was demanded back. Despite the headline, they didn't go back and invent charges for the guy, they determined he was innocent and dropped it, though they neglected his phone. One problem with making a federal case out of this is that it tends to incentivize the cops to make their own federal case out of this in defense, i.e. to make stuff up so they have a defense if they made a mistake.
- SoylentYellow 6y ago
  You are making light of some serious constitutional violations. The ruling says quite clearly that they illegally arrested him. They also illegally searched him if you watch the video, but for some reason neither court addresses it. Perhaps that wasn't brought up in the original complaint. Also, they didn't neglect to give him his phone back like it was an innocent mistake. They illegally seized it to search for evidence of a crime. Making a federal case out of this is the only avenue for justice for him.
  - Natsu 6y ago
    The "arrest" was that they said he was arrested when they detained him for 12 minutes or so. That might count as one technically for legal purposes, but it's hardly what most people would consider an "arrest." The article makes much of the idea that they "make a suspicious activity case" but the fact is that they didn't fabricate anything, they dropped the matter when they saw it was unrelated to any criminal activity. This may not be constitutional, but a norm of not cooperating with law enforcement is a terrible one that leads only to further bad outcomes. If this guy had simply given his real name and said what he was doing--despite not being required to--he likely would've kept his phone and not wasted so much time. Maybe things have changed since I was last in Des Monies, but I don't see this case going anywhere with a jury.
    - SoylentYellow 6y ago
      It is unfortunate that you don't appreciate how his actions further establish and protect our rights. I suggest you read the case of Turner v Driver to see how standing up for your rights can establish important legal precedent that benefits everyone. This case is, in my opinion, highly unlikely to go in front of a jury. I have seen many cases similar to this end in five to six figure settlements. For example, this interaction with similar circumstances resulted in a $41k settlement and a departmental policy change: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV6nsq6IIHg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV6nsq6IIHg. This interaction was only a short detainment, yet it resulted in a $75k settlement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02J2EVyxfbU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02J2EVyxfbU. I could easily provide another dozen or so examples.
stormbrew 6y ago
> If nothing else any reform must have the blessing of police officers. This statement right here is a pretty roundabout way to speak the truth that "reform" is unlikely to ever change anything. Even these moderate proposals that are just pointless theatre are opposed tooth and nail by police officers and unions everywhere. Hell, in the midst of everything going on last year, many police unions insisted their budgets needed to be increased at the expense of all other city departments facing cuts.
s1artibartfast 6y ago
>I can't shake the feeling that there is some truth or barrier to this problem that the average person doesn't know about/the government doesn't think we can handle being told. I think the truth is simple. Police officers are regular people, not supermen. They work an awful and dangerous job where they interact primarily with the worst individuals in our society. There will always be bad apples.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Being a cop is dangerous, but the danger is drastically overstated. Being a cop is significantly less dangerous than a bunch of other jobs that typically get ignored, such as construction, landscaping, being a crossing guard(!), pilot/flight engineer, roofer, gargbage collector, mechanic (several types), mechanic supervisor, or even a delivery driver. None of those other groups seem to have developed the same siege mentality that police officers have, despite having a better statistical argument for it. Even on the violence front, it's overstated. In 2020, 45 cops were shot to death on purpose, 5 shot on accident, 13 were purposefully struck by a car, and 1 died from an unspecified assault. That's 59[0] purposeful killings out of an estimated 665,280[1] police officers in America, or 8.8 per 100,000. Meanwhile COVID19 killed 221 cops, and various vehicular accidents killed 39 cops. Obviously 8.8 per 100,000 is not great, but it's far from how being a cop is portrayed in popular media. For a grim comparison, consider the risk of being murdered as a cop to the risk of being murdered as a pregnant woman. A 2005 study connecting female homicide deaths with pregnancy information came to the conclusion that the homicide rate among pregnant women might be as high as 10.5 per 100,000, or about 25% higher than the murder rate for cops. Given that the estimated domestic violence rate for police officers is 40%[3] and the known link between domestic abuse and homicide[4], a pregnant woman married to or living with a cop might have a higher chance of being murdered by her cop partner than her cop partner has of being murdered on the job. It does strike me as an awful job though. No disagreement there. 0 - https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2020 https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2020 1 - https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes333051.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes333051.htm 2 - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449445 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449445 3 - https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-officers-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-... 4 - https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/domestic-violence-murders/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/...
pessimizer 6y ago
If bad behavior is common in the police force, but the majority of officers aren't badly behaved, wouldn't a sign of success be if police officers quit en masse? The only real reason turning over the entire police force is a scary prospect is that de-ba'athification resulted in ISIS. I absolutely deny that resignation of the vast majority of police officers would result in a significant loss of useful institutional knowledge or talent. These are rotten institutions from the top down which is what really enforces the no-snitching culture. People above you will destroy you for snitching, and pull strings for you when you don't. The people above are also the ones whose "blessings" are listened to. Low-level cops don't get to speak for themselves, we only listen to people who achieve in a culture that rewards bad behavior. It's how we handle everything, not just police.
jacob2484 6y ago
"end qualified immunity, fix incentives, destroy police unions" - end tenure, fix incentives and destroy teachers unions teachers' union in America have destroyed many more lives by failing to fire bad teachers & doing misjustice to students.
trianglem 6y ago
Being a police officer is an unskilled position. Something that can be filled in an afternoon. Break up the union, force them to quit en masse. The good ones can be rehired on individual liability insurance like nurses or doctors.

itronitron 6y ago

>> Clearly police officers are above the law in America. I think many law enforcement officers view themselves as 'the law' and therefore believe that the ends justify the means. The popular, although dated, culture backs them up on that and there are many laws that favor law enforcement over suspects. Police in the US think they are above the law because in many ways they are. The good ones know how to find the balance and keep the peace.

aneemzic 6y ago
I guess it stems from a time when all you really had to work with was physical evidence and the only records being what officers had written down. So it really wouldn't have worked any other way. A suspect is always going to say whatever makes them seem innocent. "I wasn't holding that knife when you arrested me" would be impossible to disprove if the suspect was wearing gloves at the time or forensic evidence wasn't yet available. So in some ways the officers word had to hold more weight. It seems like the only solution is for every single interaction to be digitally recorded.

Natsu 6y ago

The interesting thing is that they only stopped him for a few minutes and, once they realized he wasn't suspicious, declined to do anything and let him go, then neglected to return his phone until it was demanded back. Despite the headline, they didn't go back and invent charges for the guy, they determined he was innocent and dropped it, though they neglected his phone. One problem with making a federal case out of this is that it tends to incentivize the cops to make their own federal case out of this in defense, i.e. to make stuff up so they have a defense if they made a mistake.

SoylentYellow 6y ago
You are making light of some serious constitutional violations. The ruling says quite clearly that they illegally arrested him. They also illegally searched him if you watch the video, but for some reason neither court addresses it. Perhaps that wasn't brought up in the original complaint. Also, they didn't neglect to give him his phone back like it was an innocent mistake. They illegally seized it to search for evidence of a crime. Making a federal case out of this is the only avenue for justice for him.
- Natsu 6y ago
  The "arrest" was that they said he was arrested when they detained him for 12 minutes or so. That might count as one technically for legal purposes, but it's hardly what most people would consider an "arrest." The article makes much of the idea that they "make a suspicious activity case" but the fact is that they didn't fabricate anything, they dropped the matter when they saw it was unrelated to any criminal activity. This may not be constitutional, but a norm of not cooperating with law enforcement is a terrible one that leads only to further bad outcomes. If this guy had simply given his real name and said what he was doing--despite not being required to--he likely would've kept his phone and not wasted so much time. Maybe things have changed since I was last in Des Monies, but I don't see this case going anywhere with a jury.
  - SoylentYellow 6y ago
    It is unfortunate that you don't appreciate how his actions further establish and protect our rights. I suggest you read the case of Turner v Driver to see how standing up for your rights can establish important legal precedent that benefits everyone. This case is, in my opinion, highly unlikely to go in front of a jury. I have seen many cases similar to this end in five to six figure settlements. For example, this interaction with similar circumstances resulted in a $41k settlement and a departmental policy change: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV6nsq6IIHg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV6nsq6IIHg. This interaction was only a short detainment, yet it resulted in a $75k settlement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02J2EVyxfbU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02J2EVyxfbU. I could easily provide another dozen or so examples.

stormbrew 6y ago

> If nothing else any reform must have the blessing of police officers. This statement right here is a pretty roundabout way to speak the truth that "reform" is unlikely to ever change anything. Even these moderate proposals that are just pointless theatre are opposed tooth and nail by police officers and unions everywhere. Hell, in the midst of everything going on last year, many police unions insisted their budgets needed to be increased at the expense of all other city departments facing cuts.

s1artibartfast 6y ago

>I can't shake the feeling that there is some truth or barrier to this problem that the average person doesn't know about/the government doesn't think we can handle being told. I think the truth is simple. Police officers are regular people, not supermen. They work an awful and dangerous job where they interact primarily with the worst individuals in our society. There will always be bad apples.

ashtonkem 6y ago
Being a cop is dangerous, but the danger is drastically overstated. Being a cop is significantly less dangerous than a bunch of other jobs that typically get ignored, such as construction, landscaping, being a crossing guard(!), pilot/flight engineer, roofer, gargbage collector, mechanic (several types), mechanic supervisor, or even a delivery driver. None of those other groups seem to have developed the same siege mentality that police officers have, despite having a better statistical argument for it. Even on the violence front, it's overstated. In 2020, 45 cops were shot to death on purpose, 5 shot on accident, 13 were purposefully struck by a car, and 1 died from an unspecified assault. That's 59[0] purposeful killings out of an estimated 665,280[1] police officers in America, or 8.8 per 100,000. Meanwhile COVID19 killed 221 cops, and various vehicular accidents killed 39 cops. Obviously 8.8 per 100,000 is not great, but it's far from how being a cop is portrayed in popular media. For a grim comparison, consider the risk of being murdered as a cop to the risk of being murdered as a pregnant woman. A 2005 study connecting female homicide deaths with pregnancy information came to the conclusion that the homicide rate among pregnant women might be as high as 10.5 per 100,000, or about 25% higher than the murder rate for cops. Given that the estimated domestic violence rate for police officers is 40%[3] and the known link between domestic abuse and homicide[4], a pregnant woman married to or living with a cop might have a higher chance of being murdered by her cop partner than her cop partner has of being murdered on the job. It does strike me as an awful job though. No disagreement there. 0 - https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2020 https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2020 1 - https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes333051.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes333051.htm 2 - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449445 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449445 3 - https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-officers-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-... 4 - https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/domestic-violence-murders/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/...

pessimizer 6y ago

If bad behavior is common in the police force, but the majority of officers aren't badly behaved, wouldn't a sign of success be if police officers quit en masse? The only real reason turning over the entire police force is a scary prospect is that de-ba'athification resulted in ISIS. I absolutely deny that resignation of the vast majority of police officers would result in a significant loss of useful institutional knowledge or talent. These are rotten institutions from the top down which is what really enforces the no-snitching culture. People above you will destroy you for snitching, and pull strings for you when you don't. The people above are also the ones whose "blessings" are listened to. Low-level cops don't get to speak for themselves, we only listen to people who achieve in a culture that rewards bad behavior. It's how we handle everything, not just police.

jacob2484 6y ago

"end qualified immunity, fix incentives, destroy police unions" - end tenure, fix incentives and destroy teachers unions teachers' union in America have destroyed many more lives by failing to fire bad teachers & doing misjustice to students.

trianglem 6y ago

Being a police officer is an unskilled position. Something that can be filled in an afternoon. Break up the union, force them to quit en masse. The good ones can be rehired on individual liability insurance like nurses or doctors.