8 ms·

This has been debunked repeatedly, but since "we showed those snobs!" makes for good clickbait, it inevitably returns. The studies listed never quite make it c

This has been debunked repeatedly, but since "we showed those snobs!" makes for good clickbait, it inevitably returns. The studies listed never quite make it clear how "wine expert" is being defined. The one in this article says it used students, who clearly are not experts in any sense of the word. Other studies just handwave away the question and say, "We asked wine experts." If you dig into some of them, it turns out that the designated "wine experts" were really some people that took a weekend course on wine testing. If you don't define your terms, your conclusions are not relevant. Edit, just to add an example more amenable to the HN crowd. Imagine a research study asks CS students or recent coding camp graduates questions about programming and computer science. Would you take their answers as authoritative? Because that's pretty much what is happening here, except with wine.

graton 6y ago
> This has been debunked repeatedly Any sources to support that statement?
- keiferski 6y ago
  https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2019/07/can-professional-wine-connoisseurs-really-not-tell-the-difference-between-expensive-wines-and-cheap-wines/ https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2019/07/can-profess...
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    Hmm. Maybe you read a different article from what you linked. "Our results indicate that both the prices of wines and wine recommendations by experts may be poor guides for non-expert wine consumers." "Much to my mortification I was dead wrong, as was everyone else in the room. The proprietor chuckled and informed his room… that the wines were actually the same wine; one was just warmer than the other." If anything, this article confirms the conclusions of the original. Again from your article: "Rather, this test simply showed how easily our perception of things is influenced by suggestion." This doesn't contradict the original conclusion, it confirms it.
    - nojokes 6y ago
      I think that this study is very specific to novice oenology students - they were too biased by the framework what they were taught - they saw red colored wine and they tried to fit it into the framework they know. What this study did not show was that a general public would not distinguish between red wine and colored white wine. It also did not show that seasoned wine experts would not distinguish between red wine and colored white wine. This is a really interesting study but it has its clear limitations and these should be acknowledged.
      - ogre_codes 6y ago
        This is in response to the article the parent linked, not the original. In that article, professional tasters were fooled by a small temperature difference in the same exact wine. The big takeaway is if you want to truly test anything about the flavor of wine, you absolutely must remove all preconceptions. So you must control for temperature, color, knowledge of the wine vintage, what you've eaten prior, etc. A true blind test in other words. This isn't something just novices will fall for, many top pros will fall for simple changes as well.
        bordercases 6y ago
        Alternatively the dynamic of temperature must be included as part of knowledge of the wine, and one must allow for wines to potentially converge in taste depending on their history. It is not dissimilar to tea in that regard where multiple preparations of a tea under different constraints of temperature or otherwise, can result in drastically different flavorings in the scope of hours. (The tea drinking practice in China known as Cha Dao leverages this fact to create a complex tea drinking experiences in an afternoon)
  - DonaldFisk 6y ago
    That article doesn't debunk Brochet's experiment. Here's what it says: "That said, important to note here is that while Brochet’s studies are often cited as definitively showing how bad wine experts are at judging wines, in this case that they can’t even tell the difference between red and white wines, that’s not what that study actually showed at all." Brochet proved that most people who are reasonably knowledgeable about wine can be fooled into thinking that a white wine which has been dyed red is a red wine, as shown by their describing it in terms normally used to describe a red wine, because their senses of taste and smell were fooled by what they saw. It was not a blind taste test.
    - nojokes 6y ago
      I think what Brochet study clearly displayed is that novice oenology students are too biased by the framework what they have been taught - they see red colored wine and they try to fit it into the framework they know. What this study did not show was that a general public would not distinguish between red wine and colored white wine. It also did not show that seasoned wine experts would not distinguish between red wine and colored white wine. This is a really interesting study but it has its clear limitations and these should be acknowledged.
      - smsm42 6y ago
        For the general public, wine of red color IS the red wine, so the whole question would be moot. Unless you're very non-general knowledgeable person - either formally trained or self-taught - you not only wouldn't see the difference, you wouldn't realize there's anything going on at all. Is it wine? Is it red? Then it's the red wine, period.
        nojokes 6y ago
        I think it does not hurt to repost my comment again: I think what Brochet study clearly displayed is that novice oenology students are too biased by the framework what they have been taught - they see red colored wine and they try to fit it into the framework they know. What this study did not show was that a general public would not distinguish between red wine and colored white wine. It also did not show that seasoned wine experts would not distinguish between red wine and colored white wine. This is a really interesting study but it has its clear limitations and these should be acknowledged.
nojokes 6y ago
Here's how the research went down. First, Brochet gave 27 male and 27 female oenology students a glass of red and a glass of white wine and asked them to describe the flavor of each. The students described the white with terms like "floral," "honey," "peach," and "lemon." The red elicited descriptions of "raspberry," "cherry," "cedar," and "chicory." I think what this study showed is that oenology try to fit the wine in front of themselves into the framework what they have been taught. You see red wine and try to fit it into this limited framework and describe it. I think they were fooled indeed. As a person who likes wine, I simply like to enjoy wine and not to describe it and try to figure out what that smell or taste resembles.
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  Sure. Only a small portion of people care about trying to analyze wine. But it is useful for selling wine. I like wines with lots of non-fruit flavors. Seeing a description with things I have heard used to describe wines I remember liking is useful. So there is a place for descriptors even if I buy wine to enjoy rather than analyze.
  - nojokes 6y ago
    Sure, definitely. I have sold wine in my early adulthood and clients really cared about such things and it is good to have some vocabulary to describe and distinguish different wines. Just what I think this study shows is that you may get stuck in this learned framework and try to apply it based on the appearance of the wine (red|white) and you will bias your judgement based on this. This study setup is clearly adversarial but then again it pointed out a clear weakness in current state of oenology - to understand the wine better, you must eliminate biases.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  > As a person who likes wine, I simply like to enjoy wine and not to describe it and try to figure out what that smell or taste resembles. I feel similarly about beer and coffee. I hear people talk about fruity flavors in coffee or other similarly weird descriptions of beer and I taste it and just taste the coffee. I can definitely taste the difference between fairly distinct varieties of coffee (or beer). But when people talk about getting cherry overtones in their coffee, I just shrug and enjoy it.

graton 6y ago

> This has been debunked repeatedly Any sources to support that statement?

keiferski 6y ago
https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2019/07/can-professional-wine-connoisseurs-really-not-tell-the-difference-between-expensive-wines-and-cheap-wines/ https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2019/07/can-profess...
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  Hmm. Maybe you read a different article from what you linked. "Our results indicate that both the prices of wines and wine recommendations by experts may be poor guides for non-expert wine consumers." "Much to my mortification I was dead wrong, as was everyone else in the room. The proprietor chuckled and informed his room… that the wines were actually the same wine; one was just warmer than the other." If anything, this article confirms the conclusions of the original. Again from your article: "Rather, this test simply showed how easily our perception of things is influenced by suggestion." This doesn't contradict the original conclusion, it confirms it.
  - nojokes 6y ago
    I think that this study is very specific to novice oenology students - they were too biased by the framework what they were taught - they saw red colored wine and they tried to fit it into the framework they know. What this study did not show was that a general public would not distinguish between red wine and colored white wine. It also did not show that seasoned wine experts would not distinguish between red wine and colored white wine. This is a really interesting study but it has its clear limitations and these should be acknowledged.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      This is in response to the article the parent linked, not the original. In that article, professional tasters were fooled by a small temperature difference in the same exact wine. The big takeaway is if you want to truly test anything about the flavor of wine, you absolutely must remove all preconceptions. So you must control for temperature, color, knowledge of the wine vintage, what you've eaten prior, etc. A true blind test in other words. This isn't something just novices will fall for, many top pros will fall for simple changes as well.
      - bordercases 6y ago
        Alternatively the dynamic of temperature must be included as part of knowledge of the wine, and one must allow for wines to potentially converge in taste depending on their history. It is not dissimilar to tea in that regard where multiple preparations of a tea under different constraints of temperature or otherwise, can result in drastically different flavorings in the scope of hours. (The tea drinking practice in China known as Cha Dao leverages this fact to create a complex tea drinking experiences in an afternoon)
- DonaldFisk 6y ago
  That article doesn't debunk Brochet's experiment. Here's what it says: "That said, important to note here is that while Brochet’s studies are often cited as definitively showing how bad wine experts are at judging wines, in this case that they can’t even tell the difference between red and white wines, that’s not what that study actually showed at all." Brochet proved that most people who are reasonably knowledgeable about wine can be fooled into thinking that a white wine which has been dyed red is a red wine, as shown by their describing it in terms normally used to describe a red wine, because their senses of taste and smell were fooled by what they saw. It was not a blind taste test.
  - nojokes 6y ago
    I think what Brochet study clearly displayed is that novice oenology students are too biased by the framework what they have been taught - they see red colored wine and they try to fit it into the framework they know. What this study did not show was that a general public would not distinguish between red wine and colored white wine. It also did not show that seasoned wine experts would not distinguish between red wine and colored white wine. This is a really interesting study but it has its clear limitations and these should be acknowledged.
    - smsm42 6y ago
      For the general public, wine of red color IS the red wine, so the whole question would be moot. Unless you're very non-general knowledgeable person - either formally trained or self-taught - you not only wouldn't see the difference, you wouldn't realize there's anything going on at all. Is it wine? Is it red? Then it's the red wine, period.
      - nojokes 6y ago
        I think it does not hurt to repost my comment again: I think what Brochet study clearly displayed is that novice oenology students are too biased by the framework what they have been taught - they see red colored wine and they try to fit it into the framework they know. What this study did not show was that a general public would not distinguish between red wine and colored white wine. It also did not show that seasoned wine experts would not distinguish between red wine and colored white wine. This is a really interesting study but it has its clear limitations and these should be acknowledged.

nojokes 6y ago

Here's how the research went down. First, Brochet gave 27 male and 27 female oenology students a glass of red and a glass of white wine and asked them to describe the flavor of each. The students described the white with terms like "floral," "honey," "peach," and "lemon." The red elicited descriptions of "raspberry," "cherry," "cedar," and "chicory." I think what this study showed is that oenology try to fit the wine in front of themselves into the framework what they have been taught. You see red wine and try to fit it into this limited framework and describe it. I think they were fooled indeed. As a person who likes wine, I simply like to enjoy wine and not to describe it and try to figure out what that smell or taste resembles.

UncleMeat 6y ago
Sure. Only a small portion of people care about trying to analyze wine. But it is useful for selling wine. I like wines with lots of non-fruit flavors. Seeing a description with things I have heard used to describe wines I remember liking is useful. So there is a place for descriptors even if I buy wine to enjoy rather than analyze.
- nojokes 6y ago
  Sure, definitely. I have sold wine in my early adulthood and clients really cared about such things and it is good to have some vocabulary to describe and distinguish different wines. Just what I think this study shows is that you may get stuck in this learned framework and try to apply it based on the appearance of the wine (red|white) and you will bias your judgement based on this. This study setup is clearly adversarial but then again it pointed out a clear weakness in current state of oenology - to understand the wine better, you must eliminate biases.
ogre_codes 6y ago
> As a person who likes wine, I simply like to enjoy wine and not to describe it and try to figure out what that smell or taste resembles. I feel similarly about beer and coffee. I hear people talk about fruity flavors in coffee or other similarly weird descriptions of beer and I taste it and just taste the coffee. I can definitely taste the difference between fairly distinct varieties of coffee (or beer). But when people talk about getting cherry overtones in their coffee, I just shrug and enjoy it.