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I want to push back on one of your central tenets. > f they are tasting it blind ... their taste is accurate It would be more accurate to say the tasting woul

I want to push back on one of your central tenets. > f they are tasting it blind ... their taste is accurate It would be more accurate to say the tasting would be less subjective. I don’t think “accurate” is a good word - people all taste things differently due to different taste buds and psychological wirings. But even then, removing the label doesn’t mean people taste anything objectively. They are bringing in their own biases - maybe they are tired, hungry, or stressed. Finally, (and this is my primary point), to taste is not just to detect the presence of certain molecules. That may be (part of) the objective experience, but is only part of the puzzle. To taste something is to subjectively interpret my enjoyment and experience of something edible. Adding the label and cost can be part of that experience. Further, the effect of showing the label has a pretty consistent directional impact on ratings. What makes that any different than, say, blocking a specific taste bud receptor and changing what molecules are perceived? I suggest the only difference is the abstraction layer at which the influence occurs. Taste is inherently subjective. Removing a label does not make it more accurate. I argue further that labels/prices add no more subjectivity than a persons particular configuration of taste buds and neural wiring.

barrkel 6y ago
I think you're muddling two meanings of the word taste: the aesthetic sense, vs the chemical detection system of your mouth and nose. The latter is not subjective. The experience might be, the qualia might be, and it will change with training and priming, but the raw detection is what the parent is talking about and that is objective.
- rleigh 6y ago
  The first part of my reply could have been better. I should have said "unbiased" rather than "accurate". The training part is very much about learning to identify specific chemicals, or groups of chemicals. That absolutely is raw detection, as you say. Let me provide some examples. For the "level 1" training, the most basic stuff, samples would be things like: plain water, acid (very dilute sulphuric acid), alkali (very dilute sodium hydroxide), metal (copper and nickel metal coins in a bottle of water), rubber (rubber tubing cut up in a bottle of water), salt, sugar and a few others I've forgotten (this was 22 years ago), maybe some other major categories like aldehydes. Just for the record, you don't actually drink any of that stuff down, it's tasting only and its very dilute! When the solutions are all clear, being able to identify each blind from some anonymised samples is surprisingly difficult, especially when diluted so it's more subtle. But it's absolutely possible with practice. The higher levels are all more subtle things like many different flavour compounds. For wine and beer, almost exclusively aromatic hydrocarbons, along with esters and other flavour compounds. I never did this but it's the same process, but it's much more difficult. Instead of under 10, you have an industry-standard reference set of IIRC around 60 compounds, and you have to be able to identify each and every one blind when diluted in isolation. And obviously in a drink you have to be able to identify them all individually in combination as well. This is the part that takes the most time and effort to master. And it's these people that I wouldn't question too much regarding their skills, because they actually had to pass objective assessments to demonstrate those skills. This is really hard! This is why I'm a little disappointed that the original article mentioned using students. They would be unlikely to have achieved that level of competence. It takes many months, if not years, of regular practice to get to that level. I spent a year doing the basic training and then continual daily testing and monthly assessments, and while I still class myself as being at a very basic level, I'd still likely have more practical experience than them. Regarding subjectivity and the "experience" of taste, that's absolutely taken on board as well. But it's a separate question. For where I worked, every product had a spec sheet, mostly physical and chemical properties but also a taste profile. The professional tasters could make sure it met that profile exactly. The rest of us just made sure it looked and tasted as a consumer would expect it to. For those who are wondering about why those specific "level 1" tastes, they aren't random and they are actually serving an additional purpose. Those are to also pick up on product contamination. Metal and rubber from storage tanks and pipework. Acid and alkali from cleaning agents and coolant. I actually had to check for the latter once when we had a potential set of hairline cracks in a tank suspected of leaching coolant [in beverage production, they use very concentrated KCl since it's non-toxic if it leaks, but at pH14 it's nasty stuff].
  - edmundsauto 6y ago
    Would you compromise and agree with the phrase "less biased" or "removed of one specific kind of bias"? It is impossible to be objective when we're talking about people's experiences. And I don't think "taste" can be defined without including the taster - the objective measurement of molecular concentrations is doing a mass spec on something, not tasting it.
- edmundsauto 6y ago
  I don't agree. Yes, the qualia is different, but there is no tasting without the taster, who introduces divergence between two individuals. Two different people are going to have different taste buds and different wiring. You might have a stronger signal from tannins than I do. Maybe I lack the receptors for specific molecules. Your psychology might prefer tannins more than I do. If we're talking about an objective assessment of the molecules in the bottle, then I agree there is an absolute and correct answer. But in order to taste something, there has to be a taster, and that will vary between individuals.
hilbert42 6y ago
"If they are tasting it blind (with no preconception), their taste is accurate." Very true, however there's a great deal of pretentious BS in the wine-tasting game. No matter how long one has been tasting wine, ultimately one has to have some degree of competence to analyze and then describe what one is actually tasting. That said, I'm sure people can be trained to develop wine-tasting skills and that they actually get better with experience—but ultimately one cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear no matter how good the training. I claim no great expertise in the wine-tasting/oenology game and I'm sure that I'd likely have been fooled by the dyed 'red' wine as described in the article (if I were to be so fooled then I would have had a certain class of red wines in mind when doing the comparison). Nevertheless, I do have little wine experience and I have found that it is often just sufficient to catch out the true BS artists. One only has to be marginally better at discriminating which wine is better than they are then their BS status becomes pretty obvious. I recall a couple of decades ago attending a rather expensive black-tie blind tasting of about 25 so-called experts with an engineering colleague of mine (he too had had some experience in tasting reasonable-to-good wines). As techies, we were the odd ones out, as we didn't work in the wine industry and most of the others did. Moreover, the master of ceremonies was a long-time well-known wine writer for a large newspaper and had a number of wine books to his name. As I mentioned, it was a blind tasting and the wines were the then newest (just released) first and second class Bordeaux growths with the exception of the Mouton Rothschild (it was either unavailable or too expensive to include). This much we all knew before the tasting. The aim of the exercise was to determine the best wines then rank them in order using the 3-7-10 scoring system. Anyway, like many blind tasting, it turned out to be pretty much of a shambles. The so-called experts including the wine writer were all over the place, mistaking first growths for second and vice versa. A final exercise for everyone was to guess the Lafite Rothschild, for without the presence of the Mouton, it was the most expensive wine there. (BTW, it's not the first time I've seen our wine writer in action and he was again true to form on this night.) The only ones to get the Lafite correct were my colleague and I (I nearly made myself sick from trying to hide my smirks it was so damn funny)! Incidentally, the Lafite wasn't all that hard to guess, as it was true to form and it was also the best wine of the night. Now back down to earth. Every winter I used to attend a different group for food and wine dinners. They too were black-tie events and were held approximately a month apart. It was organized by a guy who owned a wine cellar/emporium and the dinners/tastings were held at the cellar. This guy was truly one of the best and up there with the likes of Hugh Johnson and Michael Broadbent—he was certainly the best I've ever come across. Most of us were awestruck by his ability. Incidentally, all four of these guys are in the Wiki List of wine personalities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wine_personalities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wine_personalities. Thus is goes to show that sometimes BS can get one almost everywhere. Incidentally, with respect to being fooled by the dyed white wine. It seems to me that if these oenology student were actually fooled then they must have been familiar with lighter style reds à la Provence or similar and comparing the wine with those reds. For I fail to see how any robust red—Bordeaux first growths, Californian (Stags' Leap Cabernet, etc.) or Australian Reds (Grange or similar) could ever be mistaken for a white or vice versa, irrespective of color or in a blind tasting, for these big red styles are just too distinctive to be mistaken for whites in any circumstances. Even neophytes should be able to tell the difference.

barrkel 6y ago

I think you're muddling two meanings of the word taste: the aesthetic sense, vs the chemical detection system of your mouth and nose. The latter is not subjective. The experience might be, the qualia might be, and it will change with training and priming, but the raw detection is what the parent is talking about and that is objective.

rleigh 6y ago
The first part of my reply could have been better. I should have said "unbiased" rather than "accurate". The training part is very much about learning to identify specific chemicals, or groups of chemicals. That absolutely is raw detection, as you say. Let me provide some examples. For the "level 1" training, the most basic stuff, samples would be things like: plain water, acid (very dilute sulphuric acid), alkali (very dilute sodium hydroxide), metal (copper and nickel metal coins in a bottle of water), rubber (rubber tubing cut up in a bottle of water), salt, sugar and a few others I've forgotten (this was 22 years ago), maybe some other major categories like aldehydes. Just for the record, you don't actually drink any of that stuff down, it's tasting only and its very dilute! When the solutions are all clear, being able to identify each blind from some anonymised samples is surprisingly difficult, especially when diluted so it's more subtle. But it's absolutely possible with practice. The higher levels are all more subtle things like many different flavour compounds. For wine and beer, almost exclusively aromatic hydrocarbons, along with esters and other flavour compounds. I never did this but it's the same process, but it's much more difficult. Instead of under 10, you have an industry-standard reference set of IIRC around 60 compounds, and you have to be able to identify each and every one blind when diluted in isolation. And obviously in a drink you have to be able to identify them all individually in combination as well. This is the part that takes the most time and effort to master. And it's these people that I wouldn't question too much regarding their skills, because they actually had to pass objective assessments to demonstrate those skills. This is really hard! This is why I'm a little disappointed that the original article mentioned using students. They would be unlikely to have achieved that level of competence. It takes many months, if not years, of regular practice to get to that level. I spent a year doing the basic training and then continual daily testing and monthly assessments, and while I still class myself as being at a very basic level, I'd still likely have more practical experience than them. Regarding subjectivity and the "experience" of taste, that's absolutely taken on board as well. But it's a separate question. For where I worked, every product had a spec sheet, mostly physical and chemical properties but also a taste profile. The professional tasters could make sure it met that profile exactly. The rest of us just made sure it looked and tasted as a consumer would expect it to. For those who are wondering about why those specific "level 1" tastes, they aren't random and they are actually serving an additional purpose. Those are to also pick up on product contamination. Metal and rubber from storage tanks and pipework. Acid and alkali from cleaning agents and coolant. I actually had to check for the latter once when we had a potential set of hairline cracks in a tank suspected of leaching coolant [in beverage production, they use very concentrated KCl since it's non-toxic if it leaks, but at pH14 it's nasty stuff].
- edmundsauto 6y ago
  Would you compromise and agree with the phrase "less biased" or "removed of one specific kind of bias"? It is impossible to be objective when we're talking about people's experiences. And I don't think "taste" can be defined without including the taster - the objective measurement of molecular concentrations is doing a mass spec on something, not tasting it.
edmundsauto 6y ago
I don't agree. Yes, the qualia is different, but there is no tasting without the taster, who introduces divergence between two individuals. Two different people are going to have different taste buds and different wiring. You might have a stronger signal from tannins than I do. Maybe I lack the receptors for specific molecules. Your psychology might prefer tannins more than I do. If we're talking about an objective assessment of the molecules in the bottle, then I agree there is an absolute and correct answer. But in order to taste something, there has to be a taster, and that will vary between individuals.

hilbert42 6y ago

"If they are tasting it blind (with no preconception), their taste is accurate." Very true, however there's a great deal of pretentious BS in the wine-tasting game. No matter how long one has been tasting wine, ultimately one has to have some degree of competence to analyze and then describe what one is actually tasting. That said, I'm sure people can be trained to develop wine-tasting skills and that they actually get better with experience—but ultimately one cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear no matter how good the training. I claim no great expertise in the wine-tasting/oenology game and I'm sure that I'd likely have been fooled by the dyed 'red' wine as described in the article (if I were to be so fooled then I would have had a certain class of red wines in mind when doing the comparison). Nevertheless, I do have little wine experience and I have found that it is often just sufficient to catch out the true BS artists. One only has to be marginally better at discriminating which wine is better than they are then their BS status becomes pretty obvious. I recall a couple of decades ago attending a rather expensive black-tie blind tasting of about 25 so-called experts with an engineering colleague of mine (he too had had some experience in tasting reasonable-to-good wines). As techies, we were the odd ones out, as we didn't work in the wine industry and most of the others did. Moreover, the master of ceremonies was a long-time well-known wine writer for a large newspaper and had a number of wine books to his name. As I mentioned, it was a blind tasting and the wines were the then newest (just released) first and second class Bordeaux growths with the exception of the Mouton Rothschild (it was either unavailable or too expensive to include). This much we all knew before the tasting. The aim of the exercise was to determine the best wines then rank them in order using the 3-7-10 scoring system. Anyway, like many blind tasting, it turned out to be pretty much of a shambles. The so-called experts including the wine writer were all over the place, mistaking first growths for second and vice versa. A final exercise for everyone was to guess the Lafite Rothschild, for without the presence of the Mouton, it was the most expensive wine there. (BTW, it's not the first time I've seen our wine writer in action and he was again true to form on this night.) The only ones to get the Lafite correct were my colleague and I (I nearly made myself sick from trying to hide my smirks it was so damn funny)! Incidentally, the Lafite wasn't all that hard to guess, as it was true to form and it was also the best wine of the night. Now back down to earth. Every winter I used to attend a different group for food and wine dinners. They too were black-tie events and were held approximately a month apart. It was organized by a guy who owned a wine cellar/emporium and the dinners/tastings were held at the cellar. This guy was truly one of the best and up there with the likes of Hugh Johnson and Michael Broadbent—he was certainly the best I've ever come across. Most of us were awestruck by his ability. Incidentally, all four of these guys are in the Wiki List of wine personalities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wine_personalities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wine_personalities. Thus is goes to show that sometimes BS can get one almost everywhere. Incidentally, with respect to being fooled by the dyed white wine. It seems to me that if these oenology student were actually fooled then they must have been familiar with lighter style reds à la Provence or similar and comparing the wine with those reds. For I fail to see how any robust red—Bordeaux first growths, Californian (Stags' Leap Cabernet, etc.) or Australian Reds (Grange or similar) could ever be mistaken for a white or vice versa, irrespective of color or in a blind tasting, for these big red styles are just too distinctive to be mistaken for whites in any circumstances. Even neophytes should be able to tell the difference.