> Rationalists are the more modern type of reformer here (and so are hackers, founders who like to disrupt things, etc., so this worldview also tends to be popu

> Rationalists are the more modern type of reformer here (and so are hackers, founders who like to disrupt things, etc., so this worldview also tends to be popular on this site). Absent a convincing argument from first principles as to why the fence should exist, they think it's clear that it shouldn't. Maybe this was true 5-10 years ago but my sense is that "rationalists" have grown up (sometimes literally -- they were in their early 20s, now they're in their late 20s, early 30s). Scott Alexander doesn't seem like this "modern type of reformer" to me and I think a lot of people are on the same trajectory as him. I think this is a phase of personal development and it usually ends by 30. Also, plenty of the people I'd put into this category ("modern type of reformers") are not grey tribers, they're blue-tribers. "Abolish the police," "open the borders" is exactly this kind of reform. The difference between the blue tribers and the grey tribers -- when it comes to naive calls for reform -- is that the former are more emotional and the latter are more analytical. Neither of them are wise. > In the other direction, this also explains why the Grey Tribe has "vague annoyance that the question of gay rights even comes up," quoting the Slate Star Codex post linked in the NYT article (which references another Chesterton work, as it happens). To the more modern type of reformer, the gender-checking gate in front of romantic partnership obviously has no point, needs to be torn down, and really the problem is all the people defending the gate because it historically existed. Which, yes, they're right about that! But the Blue Tribe knows that if you actually want gay rights to happen, you've got to play by the rules of the "more intelligent" reformer - who is wrong in this case - and affirmatively argue for taking down the fence instead of simply questioning it. We're getting pretty close to gay rights these days. Personally, I think Will & Grace had more to do with that than either kind of reformer. Americans have become more comfortable with homosexuality as they became exposed to gay people who are "normal". In other words, the perception of gay people has shifted from hustlers and tortured married men looking for sex in dive bars to well-dressed, polite lawyers. Reformers played some role in that process but I think it's a mistake to view progress like this as the result of "winning an argument".