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But its such a profound failure, it warrants skepticism of the field. Or at least of schools that purport to teach a skill, then fail at that entirely.

jfengel 6y ago
And a seven year old article without a follow-up also warrants skepticism. People have pointed out problems with the headline conclusion. To the degree that "skepticism" means thinking hard and applying work to discern differences, it would be warranted. To the degree that it's interpreted as general doubtfulness without further effort or thought, that's actually the opposite of true skepticism.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  Come on. We know that taste perception is very largely influenced by expectation. Every drink orange juice just to find out it's milk? Taste awful until you figure out "oh that's just milk". If it seems that wine chatter can be explained entirely by the power of suggestion, then Occam's razor suggests that's all there is to it. There's no need to invent magical barely-detectable subtle flavor attributes to fermented grape juice.
  - jfengel 6y ago
    Of course it's influenced by expectation. That wine students get it wrong when misled is hardly surprising. The question is, what does it actually mean? Wine experts regularly identify wines when blinded but not misled. The "subtle flavors" are objectively there -- you can see them on a gas chromatograph. But the experts aren't there to be poor-quality GCs. They're there to identify wines that other people will think are interesting. Some people find the language they use to describe it off-putting, but they're just trying to describe a sensory experience, using familiar language in unfamiliar ways. It's readily understood by their colleagues. There's an objective difference between that and "power of suggestion" that's poorly conveyed by this article. I believe that's why the article is dated and lacks follow-ups. It doesn't say what people think it does, and researchers either didn't bother to look in more details or didn't think that what they found was as interesting. I'll reiterate that these subtle differences don't have to be important to you to enjoy wine. People get attached to the high prices and snobbery of very high end wines. But that's not really what wine tasting is about, and it's absolutely not necessary to enjoy wine.

jfengel 6y ago

And a seven year old article without a follow-up also warrants skepticism. People have pointed out problems with the headline conclusion. To the degree that "skepticism" means thinking hard and applying work to discern differences, it would be warranted. To the degree that it's interpreted as general doubtfulness without further effort or thought, that's actually the opposite of true skepticism.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago
Come on. We know that taste perception is very largely influenced by expectation. Every drink orange juice just to find out it's milk? Taste awful until you figure out "oh that's just milk". If it seems that wine chatter can be explained entirely by the power of suggestion, then Occam's razor suggests that's all there is to it. There's no need to invent magical barely-detectable subtle flavor attributes to fermented grape juice.
- jfengel 6y ago
  Of course it's influenced by expectation. That wine students get it wrong when misled is hardly surprising. The question is, what does it actually mean? Wine experts regularly identify wines when blinded but not misled. The "subtle flavors" are objectively there -- you can see them on a gas chromatograph. But the experts aren't there to be poor-quality GCs. They're there to identify wines that other people will think are interesting. Some people find the language they use to describe it off-putting, but they're just trying to describe a sensory experience, using familiar language in unfamiliar ways. It's readily understood by their colleagues. There's an objective difference between that and "power of suggestion" that's poorly conveyed by this article. I believe that's why the article is dated and lacks follow-ups. It doesn't say what people think it does, and researchers either didn't bother to look in more details or didn't think that what they found was as interesting. I'll reiterate that these subtle differences don't have to be important to you to enjoy wine. People get attached to the high prices and snobbery of very high end wines. But that's not really what wine tasting is about, and it's absolutely not necessary to enjoy wine.