4 ms·

You cannot say a whole field is fake because of a single experiments on students of that field. Neither can you by looking at people using their diploma but la

by ta988 6y ago

You cannot say a whole field is fake because of a single experiments on students of that field. Neither can you by looking at people using their diploma but lacking the real expertise. I know chemistry PhDs I would never let run even the simplest experiment... They still boast on social media that they are experts, same with people selling wine and lying to clients to make them believe the wine is good or taste like chocolate...

JoeAltmaier 6y ago
But its such a profound failure, it warrants skepticism of the field. Or at least of schools that purport to teach a skill, then fail at that entirely.
- jfengel 6y ago
  And a seven year old article without a follow-up also warrants skepticism. People have pointed out problems with the headline conclusion. To the degree that "skepticism" means thinking hard and applying work to discern differences, it would be warranted. To the degree that it's interpreted as general doubtfulness without further effort or thought, that's actually the opposite of true skepticism.
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    Come on. We know that taste perception is very largely influenced by expectation. Every drink orange juice just to find out it's milk? Taste awful until you figure out "oh that's just milk". If it seems that wine chatter can be explained entirely by the power of suggestion, then Occam's razor suggests that's all there is to it. There's no need to invent magical barely-detectable subtle flavor attributes to fermented grape juice.
    - jfengel 6y ago
      Of course it's influenced by expectation. That wine students get it wrong when misled is hardly surprising. The question is, what does it actually mean? Wine experts regularly identify wines when blinded but not misled. The "subtle flavors" are objectively there -- you can see them on a gas chromatograph. But the experts aren't there to be poor-quality GCs. They're there to identify wines that other people will think are interesting. Some people find the language they use to describe it off-putting, but they're just trying to describe a sensory experience, using familiar language in unfamiliar ways. It's readily understood by their colleagues. There's an objective difference between that and "power of suggestion" that's poorly conveyed by this article. I believe that's why the article is dated and lacks follow-ups. It doesn't say what people think it does, and researchers either didn't bother to look in more details or didn't think that what they found was as interesting. I'll reiterate that these subtle differences don't have to be important to you to enjoy wine. People get attached to the high prices and snobbery of very high end wines. But that's not really what wine tasting is about, and it's absolutely not necessary to enjoy wine.
whatanattitude 6y ago
But all republicans are racist amirite.
ericbarrett 6y ago
I have witnessed with my own two eyes an experienced wine aficionado call the grape type, terroir (micro-region) and year of a brown-bagged wine, based on a single tasting. They were off by one year, but otherwise correct. There’s a ton of BS in the wine world, but it’s not all fake.
- alexose 6y ago
  I have a few somm friends that can do this reliably. The process of elimination is really fascinating to watch. The reason it's possible, though, is because the majority of commercial wine conforms to distinct, repeatable styles. A grassy note in an amber-colored wine might narrow it down to a single grape variety, a hint of smoke might indicate the region. Then take the relative level of oxidation, and you've got a decent guess at the year. Index that against your mental database of all the possible wines that it could be (price point, availability, etc.), and you've got a good shot the exact bottle. The level of knowledge required to do this without a book in front of you is impressive, but it's not magic. More like 20 questions with a relatively narrow target area. The usual tricks will fail when you try it with small producers, non-traditional production techniques, or AVAs that don't distribute widely.
  - ta988 6y ago
    I have a friend that does that exclusively with small producers wines (he is the owner of a store for specialty wines now somewhere in France), same approach. He has a traditional training in oenology, but spends his time tasting and traveling around Europe to find new unique things. Much more interesting oenological work than people working only with the normalized big-ones.

by ta988 6y ago

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

But its such a profound failure, it warrants skepticism of the field. Or at least of schools that purport to teach a skill, then fail at that entirely.

jfengel 6y ago
And a seven year old article without a follow-up also warrants skepticism. People have pointed out problems with the headline conclusion. To the degree that "skepticism" means thinking hard and applying work to discern differences, it would be warranted. To the degree that it's interpreted as general doubtfulness without further effort or thought, that's actually the opposite of true skepticism.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  Come on. We know that taste perception is very largely influenced by expectation. Every drink orange juice just to find out it's milk? Taste awful until you figure out "oh that's just milk". If it seems that wine chatter can be explained entirely by the power of suggestion, then Occam's razor suggests that's all there is to it. There's no need to invent magical barely-detectable subtle flavor attributes to fermented grape juice.
  - jfengel 6y ago
    Of course it's influenced by expectation. That wine students get it wrong when misled is hardly surprising. The question is, what does it actually mean? Wine experts regularly identify wines when blinded but not misled. The "subtle flavors" are objectively there -- you can see them on a gas chromatograph. But the experts aren't there to be poor-quality GCs. They're there to identify wines that other people will think are interesting. Some people find the language they use to describe it off-putting, but they're just trying to describe a sensory experience, using familiar language in unfamiliar ways. It's readily understood by their colleagues. There's an objective difference between that and "power of suggestion" that's poorly conveyed by this article. I believe that's why the article is dated and lacks follow-ups. It doesn't say what people think it does, and researchers either didn't bother to look in more details or didn't think that what they found was as interesting. I'll reiterate that these subtle differences don't have to be important to you to enjoy wine. People get attached to the high prices and snobbery of very high end wines. But that's not really what wine tasting is about, and it's absolutely not necessary to enjoy wine.

whatanattitude 6y ago

But all republicans are racist amirite.

ericbarrett 6y ago

I have witnessed with my own two eyes an experienced wine aficionado call the grape type, terroir (micro-region) and year of a brown-bagged wine, based on a single tasting. They were off by one year, but otherwise correct. There’s a ton of BS in the wine world, but it’s not all fake.

alexose 6y ago
I have a few somm friends that can do this reliably. The process of elimination is really fascinating to watch. The reason it's possible, though, is because the majority of commercial wine conforms to distinct, repeatable styles. A grassy note in an amber-colored wine might narrow it down to a single grape variety, a hint of smoke might indicate the region. Then take the relative level of oxidation, and you've got a decent guess at the year. Index that against your mental database of all the possible wines that it could be (price point, availability, etc.), and you've got a good shot the exact bottle. The level of knowledge required to do this without a book in front of you is impressive, but it's not magic. More like 20 questions with a relatively narrow target area. The usual tricks will fail when you try it with small producers, non-traditional production techniques, or AVAs that don't distribute widely.
- ta988 6y ago
  I have a friend that does that exclusively with small producers wines (he is the owner of a store for specialty wines now somewhere in France), same approach. He has a traditional training in oenology, but spends his time tasting and traveling around Europe to find new unique things. Much more interesting oenological work than people working only with the normalized big-ones.