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> The research, later published in the journal Brain and Language, is now widely used to show why wine tasting is total BS. BS? Or simply subjective? Sure peop

> The research, later published in the journal Brain and Language, is now widely used to show why wine tasting is total BS. BS? Or simply subjective? Sure people are influenced by "experts", as humans when isn't that true? Fashion? Music? The list is endless. We want to believe we are autonomous and independent but more often we naturally conform to the norm around us. Third-party insights and guidance are why we survived. I like wine. But I drink what I like. My senses aren't necessarily the same as someone else's. I'm sure if I tasted enough wine I could become an "expert." But that doesn't appeal to me. It takes the enjoyment out of it. I don't think that makes experience and expertise BS. Merely subjective.

vagrantJin 6y ago
I think the gripe with things like wine tasting is the "elitist" nature of it all. Tasting a lot of wines and beers either makes you an expert or a drunk or an expert drunk or drunk expert? Either way, theres no certainty that a drunk isn't an expert or vice versa.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  Expert drunk. In Iowa wine and spirits are sold mostly my state-run stores. They record the interesting fact that 90% of their sales are to 10% of their customers. Which actually puts that 10% at 81X the money spent on alcohol vs the rest of the population. That's a lot.
  - adonovan 6y ago
    Exactly. The whole liquor industry would collapse overnight were it not for their hard-core alcoholic customers. But "Drink responsibly", everyone.
  - rectang 6y ago
    This has profound implications for how we legalize marijuana, where the same dynamic holds and the real money is in supplying the heaviest users.
- jfengel 6y ago
  Wine shouldn't be elitist. There are rich people playing stupid games for stupid prizes, which is tiny but highly visible because it lets people tell a story they want to tell. The vast majority of wine drinkers simply drink wine. Those who really enjoy it may search out something interesting and distinctive for special occasions. Those will be rarer and more expensive, and the experience is difficult to convey, as any purely sensual experience is difficult to convey. You can enjoy wine without participating in any of that. But don't be misled by the people putting on airs about it. That's just people being voyeuristic about the wealthy and seeking out snobbery to feel superior to. It's not about wine at all.
JoeAltmaier 6y ago
Wine tasters make strong claims, and love to point out what others are missing. Those claims are bunk. If they simply said "That dress is marvelous! It looks great on you! I love the daring neckline!" we could all accept that as effusive enthusiasm. But to pretend to have an entire lexicon, to write endless descriptive books about it, makes wine tasters an entire level of farce above anything else you care to name.
- barrkel 6y ago
  You are wrong. I might have agreed with you 20 years ago, but I know better now. Practice describing the flavours of the wine you drink, and your flavour memory and perception will improve over time. I generally drink a glass or two every evening, and it's usually a new wine, one I've never tasted before. I've written hundreds of tasting notes. One of the most interesting things to come out of this is finding out something later - e.g. a notable region or producer - and then correlating this with past notes. I noted things myself, over multiple samplings, which I later found - via experts - were expected attributes within the category.
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    That describes exactly, the power of suggestion of perception. If it can all be explained by association triggering memory-perception (and it can, as suggested by the idea that 20 years of conditioning make it vivid) then we can reasonably conclude that there's nothing to the wine thing except that.
    - barrkel 6y ago
      Well, as they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. And there are none so blind as those who will not see. Tasting wine is like listening to a polyphonic note with different envelopes. It has extremely complex flavours that change in the mouth. Is the taste of an apple simply the association from your memories? An orange likewise? Or do they not have a pleasurable qualia all of their own? Have you ever tasted a cocktail made by a good bartender? Isn't it fun picking out the different flavours, and feeling how they mix together to create new sensations, not trivially reducible to the component parts? Wine is like that. But it's not just flavours. Take tension, for example. Wines have acidity, which makes your mouth water, and red wines have tannins, which make your mouth pucker and feel dry. Many great red wines will have a good balance of acidity and tannins which seem to confuse your mouth, leaving it balanced on a midpoint of watering vs drying out. It's quite a peculiar sensation, and it makes you want to go for another sip. Then there's wine pairing. A fun thing to try is a few pates with a couple of glasses of different wines. One wine brings out spicy notes, another herbal flavours. One pate may make a wine seem fruitier, while another more lactic, or more savoury. In many cases there's no right or wrong; the wine is another ingredient in the mouth, and it simply changes the flavour profile. More variety for your eating!

vagrantJin 6y ago

I think the gripe with things like wine tasting is the "elitist" nature of it all. Tasting a lot of wines and beers either makes you an expert or a drunk or an expert drunk or drunk expert? Either way, theres no certainty that a drunk isn't an expert or vice versa.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago
Expert drunk. In Iowa wine and spirits are sold mostly my state-run stores. They record the interesting fact that 90% of their sales are to 10% of their customers. Which actually puts that 10% at 81X the money spent on alcohol vs the rest of the population. That's a lot.
- adonovan 6y ago
  Exactly. The whole liquor industry would collapse overnight were it not for their hard-core alcoholic customers. But "Drink responsibly", everyone.
- rectang 6y ago
  This has profound implications for how we legalize marijuana, where the same dynamic holds and the real money is in supplying the heaviest users.
jfengel 6y ago
Wine shouldn't be elitist. There are rich people playing stupid games for stupid prizes, which is tiny but highly visible because it lets people tell a story they want to tell. The vast majority of wine drinkers simply drink wine. Those who really enjoy it may search out something interesting and distinctive for special occasions. Those will be rarer and more expensive, and the experience is difficult to convey, as any purely sensual experience is difficult to convey. You can enjoy wine without participating in any of that. But don't be misled by the people putting on airs about it. That's just people being voyeuristic about the wealthy and seeking out snobbery to feel superior to. It's not about wine at all.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

Wine tasters make strong claims, and love to point out what others are missing. Those claims are bunk. If they simply said "That dress is marvelous! It looks great on you! I love the daring neckline!" we could all accept that as effusive enthusiasm. But to pretend to have an entire lexicon, to write endless descriptive books about it, makes wine tasters an entire level of farce above anything else you care to name.

barrkel 6y ago
You are wrong. I might have agreed with you 20 years ago, but I know better now. Practice describing the flavours of the wine you drink, and your flavour memory and perception will improve over time. I generally drink a glass or two every evening, and it's usually a new wine, one I've never tasted before. I've written hundreds of tasting notes. One of the most interesting things to come out of this is finding out something later - e.g. a notable region or producer - and then correlating this with past notes. I noted things myself, over multiple samplings, which I later found - via experts - were expected attributes within the category.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  That describes exactly, the power of suggestion of perception. If it can all be explained by association triggering memory-perception (and it can, as suggested by the idea that 20 years of conditioning make it vivid) then we can reasonably conclude that there's nothing to the wine thing except that.
  - barrkel 6y ago
    Well, as they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. And there are none so blind as those who will not see. Tasting wine is like listening to a polyphonic note with different envelopes. It has extremely complex flavours that change in the mouth. Is the taste of an apple simply the association from your memories? An orange likewise? Or do they not have a pleasurable qualia all of their own? Have you ever tasted a cocktail made by a good bartender? Isn't it fun picking out the different flavours, and feeling how they mix together to create new sensations, not trivially reducible to the component parts? Wine is like that. But it's not just flavours. Take tension, for example. Wines have acidity, which makes your mouth water, and red wines have tannins, which make your mouth pucker and feel dry. Many great red wines will have a good balance of acidity and tannins which seem to confuse your mouth, leaving it balanced on a midpoint of watering vs drying out. It's quite a peculiar sensation, and it makes you want to go for another sip. Then there's wine pairing. A fun thing to try is a few pates with a couple of glasses of different wines. One wine brings out spicy notes, another herbal flavours. One pate may make a wine seem fruitier, while another more lactic, or more savoury. In many cases there's no right or wrong; the wine is another ingredient in the mouth, and it simply changes the flavour profile. More variety for your eating!