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Stalin was an effective politician and cancelling was his instrument. People just copy what works.

wilsocr88 6y ago
> Stalin was an effective politician The problem is, Stalin did at least ten holocausts, depending on how we're counting. Most people basically agree that Nazis and fascists are not okay, but there does not exist any such inoculation against extremism on the left, like there does on the right. People can freely call themselves communists or socialists, and few seem to have a problem. Those who bring it up are caricaturized as, "Oh, how many Communists are in the State Department, Mister McCarthy?"
- etrautmann 6y ago
  This is a false equivalence. Socialists are not inherently the opposite of fascists, or equivalent in the degree of how extreme it is to hold some version of those views. I think your argument is that the Overton window skews left with a blind spot for the extreme left?
  - dogma1138 6y ago
    I think the argument would be correct if you use the Overton window as intended - freedom vs authoritarianism. It was never intended to be a left/right divide on purely social and economic policies. I think the “left” has an issue with authoritarianism on its edges, and by left I don’t mean the US left but mainly Europe. The concept of “solidarity” is also something that the left needs to take a look at because it means that you end up being friends and supporting individuals and groups that are despicable, and that is before you get into the problem of the “end justifies the means”. The issue I have with government enforced socialism is that it doesn’t have the right tools to deal with “that’s nice but I want to try my way” without violence. A socialist microcosm can exist in any open society even in a purely free market uber capitalist one, a free market cannot exist in a socialist society as it’s a clear threat. People also need to stop confusing social services with socialism, public healthcare isn’t a socialist policy it should be the perk of living in a developed society. Socialism at its core is about ownership and individualism not about what services you can get for “free”. This is why it’s so fucking hard to talk about actual issues, I believe that any developed nation should offer universal healthcare and education but I do not want to live in a society that tells me what my role in it should be, what I can own and what I should do with my money.
- andrepd 6y ago
  > Stalin did at least ten holocausts What do you mean by this? > People can freely call themselves communists or socialists, and few seem to have a problem. (1) huge amounts of people do in fact rage uncontrollably at any idea that might be labeled "socialist", and (2) socialism encompasses such a wide variety of views, from anarchist and libertarian ideas, yes to Stalinist tankies. I'd wager the latter are a fringe minority.
  - wilsocr88 6y ago
    What I mean by that is that Stalin-descended (or maybe it should say "Marx-descended") ideology is, by the raw death toll numbers, FAR worse than the Nazis (who were also unbelievably bad, just to be completely clear). I use the phrase "ten holocausts" because it's catchy, memorable, and it sticks in the mind (this is UNBELIEVABLY important. I need people to remember). It's (very roughly) true. Hitler killed ~11ish million, Communist governments have killed ~100ish million and are still going strong in multiple countries. Yet, nobody cares about the resentment-based ideology that leads to it being drilled into the minds of young people in so many western universities.
    - andrepd 6y ago
      > What I mean by that is that Stalin-descended (or maybe it should say "Marx-descended") In the sense that those things are about as unrelated as they can be, I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about, and you're instead simply parroting Red Scare tropes uncritically. > Hitler killed ~11ish million, Communist governments have killed ~100ish million I really don't wish to get into dick-measuring contests like these because the exact number doesn't really matter, anything whose death toll is counted in millions is so horrifying that it is almost insulting to be arguing about exact counts. But Hitler killed many more than 11 million people, and only the most ludicrous counts get to 100 million dead "by communism", including things such as Soviet soldiers dead fighting Nazis. And of course, the opposite of "communism", if it exists, isn't "Hitler", it's "capitalism". It would be amusing to try to measure the death toll of capitalism, including colonialism, slavery, exploitation, repression, wars, etc.

> Stalin was an effective politician The problem is, Stalin did at least ten holocausts, depending on how we're counting. Most people basically agree that Nazis and fascists are not okay, but there does not exist any such inoculation against extremism on the left, like there does on the right. People can freely call themselves communists or socialists, and few seem to have a problem. Those who bring it up are caricaturized as, "Oh, how many Communists are in the State Department, Mister McCarthy?"

etrautmann 6y ago
This is a false equivalence. Socialists are not inherently the opposite of fascists, or equivalent in the degree of how extreme it is to hold some version of those views. I think your argument is that the Overton window skews left with a blind spot for the extreme left?
- dogma1138 6y ago
  I think the argument would be correct if you use the Overton window as intended - freedom vs authoritarianism. It was never intended to be a left/right divide on purely social and economic policies. I think the “left” has an issue with authoritarianism on its edges, and by left I don’t mean the US left but mainly Europe. The concept of “solidarity” is also something that the left needs to take a look at because it means that you end up being friends and supporting individuals and groups that are despicable, and that is before you get into the problem of the “end justifies the means”. The issue I have with government enforced socialism is that it doesn’t have the right tools to deal with “that’s nice but I want to try my way” without violence. A socialist microcosm can exist in any open society even in a purely free market uber capitalist one, a free market cannot exist in a socialist society as it’s a clear threat. People also need to stop confusing social services with socialism, public healthcare isn’t a socialist policy it should be the perk of living in a developed society. Socialism at its core is about ownership and individualism not about what services you can get for “free”. This is why it’s so fucking hard to talk about actual issues, I believe that any developed nation should offer universal healthcare and education but I do not want to live in a society that tells me what my role in it should be, what I can own and what I should do with my money.
andrepd 6y ago
> Stalin did at least ten holocausts What do you mean by this? > People can freely call themselves communists or socialists, and few seem to have a problem. (1) huge amounts of people do in fact rage uncontrollably at any idea that might be labeled "socialist", and (2) socialism encompasses such a wide variety of views, from anarchist and libertarian ideas, yes to Stalinist tankies. I'd wager the latter are a fringe minority.
- wilsocr88 6y ago
  What I mean by that is that Stalin-descended (or maybe it should say "Marx-descended") ideology is, by the raw death toll numbers, FAR worse than the Nazis (who were also unbelievably bad, just to be completely clear). I use the phrase "ten holocausts" because it's catchy, memorable, and it sticks in the mind (this is UNBELIEVABLY important. I need people to remember). It's (very roughly) true. Hitler killed ~11ish million, Communist governments have killed ~100ish million and are still going strong in multiple countries. Yet, nobody cares about the resentment-based ideology that leads to it being drilled into the minds of young people in so many western universities.
  - andrepd 6y ago
    > What I mean by that is that Stalin-descended (or maybe it should say "Marx-descended") In the sense that those things are about as unrelated as they can be, I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about, and you're instead simply parroting Red Scare tropes uncritically. > Hitler killed ~11ish million, Communist governments have killed ~100ish million I really don't wish to get into dick-measuring contests like these because the exact number doesn't really matter, anything whose death toll is counted in millions is so horrifying that it is almost insulting to be arguing about exact counts. But Hitler killed many more than 11 million people, and only the most ludicrous counts get to 100 million dead "by communism", including things such as Soviet soldiers dead fighting Nazis. And of course, the opposite of "communism", if it exists, isn't "Hitler", it's "capitalism". It would be amusing to try to measure the death toll of capitalism, including colonialism, slavery, exploitation, repression, wars, etc.