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US tech workers are massively over-payed so it's tough to feel sorry for ourselves. I moved here from Europe and the salaries are completely absurd, especially

by vp8989 6y ago

US tech workers are massively over-payed so it's tough to feel sorry for ourselves. I moved here from Europe and the salaries are completely absurd, especially at the junior level. People are being brought in from college, they can barely tie their shoe laces without someone there to help them and they are given 6 figures. Meanwhile I know people in the UK who are seasoned lead engineers who work hard and literally put entire companies on their backs and they make half the money.

KDJohnBrown 6y ago
European salaries are absurdly low. As an expat who doesn’t benefit from government services the same way an EU/UK citizen would, it’s a non starter. London is easily as expensive, if not moreso than San Francisco. I don’t understand how engineers can work for 30-45% less.
- aurizon 6y ago
  Often people are paid a 'London Allowance', to maintain their residence equitably. Their engineer/other salary being the same as places further away. I assume there is a cost of residency allowance for other UK cities that have a premium. If you move away, that residency allowance is adjusted to where you work from. Thus the technical salary is ~~flat. After all this allowance is a pass through to the landlords. Those whose parents onw London center digs do very well. I am not sure how property taxes are levied in the UK, but one would anticipare the Lords would have long since levelled that via head taxes that are levelled in some manner? Any UK people care to weigh in here?
  - dbetteridge 6y ago
    "Often people are paid a 'London Allowance', to maintain their residence equitably. Their engineer/other salary being the same as places further away. I assume there is a cost of residency allowance for other UK cities that have a premium. If you move away, that residency allowance is adjusted to where you work from. Thus the technical salary is ~~flat. After all this allowance is a pass through to the landlords. Those whose parents onw London center digs do very well. I am not sure how property taxes are levied in the UK, but one would anticipare the Lords would have long since levelled that via head taxes that are levelled in some manner? Any UK people care to weigh in here? " Reformatting for readability, sorry aurizon my brain was struggling.
    - aurizon 6y ago
      NP, I am known for my dense code...
  - desas 6y ago
    Public sector jobs often have an explicit "London weighting" (or HCAS), it's set at 20% of salary up to a cap of about £7k, and decreases the further you get from central London. Some private sector firms do similar apparently, but I've never heard of it in the tech sector. Other cities don't usually get similar supplements, even places like Cambridge where housing costs can be really high. Property taxes are called "Council tax" here, they're probably the most regressive tax in England (the rest of the UK have slightly different rules). The amount of tax depends upon both the local area and the value of the property in 1991. Everyone who's house was work more than £320k in 1991 pays the same rate. This means in Kensington, London someone in a swanky 250 sq.m. £8million house pays £2473 per year...as does someone in a £million apartment on the next street. The person a few streets over in a grotty 20sq.m £300k studio will be paying £962 per year.
    - aurizon 6y ago
      Thanks for the info. The rich are well protected indeed...
- hackissimo123 6y ago
  > London is easily as expensive, if not moreso than San Francisco. As a Londoner, I find that hard to believe. London is a huge, diverse city with many industries other than tech, and the vast majority of London's population don't make anything close to an SF tech salary. If London was as expensive as SF then I know I wouldn't be able to afford to live here.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    One of the things that distorts these discussions is that it's not just SF proper that's expensive for the most part. It's also the South Bay, Marin, and even parts of the East Bay. It's hard to have a decent daily commute from anywhere that's relatively inexpensive. That's not the case with most cities where a 20-40 mile drive (or even a commuter rail) to where the jobs are (which may or may not be in the city proper) can get you into fairly reasonably-priced housing.
    - hackissimo123 6y ago
      London also has excellent public transport. (Some Londoners might disagree, but have they ever travelled? I've never been to any other large city where it was easier to get around by train and bus.) It's very easy to live in London without needing a car, which brings the cost of living down substantially.
      - ljm 6y ago
        London is very well connected in a bunch of ways (bus, tube, ferry, overground, DLR, tram, train, boris bike...) and in the centre is a lot more walkable than you might think, to the point of not really needing any of it in certain areas. The reason we call it shit is because (before COVID) they're pretty much all pushed beyond capacity during the commuting hours, or practically all the time between the main tourist spots. Commuting in London is a truly hellish experience. And that includes the commuter trains that are frequently delayed or cancelled while ticket prices increase above inflation every year. The best thing that happened from covid is skipping the commute and saving the £300 a month it took to get to the office and back.
shagie 6y ago
Tech workers exist outside of Big Tech and well funded SaaS companies. I've worked as a person working on the internal bulletin board, planograms and point of sales devices at a retail company. I've worked writing reports at a small logistics company that specialized in getting auto parts to garages. I'm currently working in the public sector. In none of these have I made six figures. Part of this is locale. Part of it is I'm not seeking out those Big Tech jobs. Part of it is the industries I've been working in. Lumping the public sector in the midwest into "US tech workers" and claiming the entire pool is overpaid is the reality for a small set of industries in (what has been) a few geographic bubbles.
- vp8989 6y ago
  The article we are commenting on is written from the context of a high COL based tech worker.
6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
Why say US workers are overpaid instead of saying UK workers are underpaid?
- vp8989 6y ago
  I said US tech workers are overpaid, not US workers in general. UK tech salaries are a lot closer to other types of office work.

by vp8989 6y ago

KDJohnBrown 6y ago

European salaries are absurdly low. As an expat who doesn’t benefit from government services the same way an EU/UK citizen would, it’s a non starter. London is easily as expensive, if not moreso than San Francisco. I don’t understand how engineers can work for 30-45% less.

aurizon 6y ago
Often people are paid a 'London Allowance', to maintain their residence equitably. Their engineer/other salary being the same as places further away. I assume there is a cost of residency allowance for other UK cities that have a premium. If you move away, that residency allowance is adjusted to where you work from. Thus the technical salary is ~~flat. After all this allowance is a pass through to the landlords. Those whose parents onw London center digs do very well. I am not sure how property taxes are levied in the UK, but one would anticipare the Lords would have long since levelled that via head taxes that are levelled in some manner? Any UK people care to weigh in here?
- dbetteridge 6y ago
  "Often people are paid a 'London Allowance', to maintain their residence equitably. Their engineer/other salary being the same as places further away. I assume there is a cost of residency allowance for other UK cities that have a premium. If you move away, that residency allowance is adjusted to where you work from. Thus the technical salary is ~~flat. After all this allowance is a pass through to the landlords. Those whose parents onw London center digs do very well. I am not sure how property taxes are levied in the UK, but one would anticipare the Lords would have long since levelled that via head taxes that are levelled in some manner? Any UK people care to weigh in here? " Reformatting for readability, sorry aurizon my brain was struggling.
  - aurizon 6y ago
    NP, I am known for my dense code...
- desas 6y ago
  Public sector jobs often have an explicit "London weighting" (or HCAS), it's set at 20% of salary up to a cap of about £7k, and decreases the further you get from central London. Some private sector firms do similar apparently, but I've never heard of it in the tech sector. Other cities don't usually get similar supplements, even places like Cambridge where housing costs can be really high. Property taxes are called "Council tax" here, they're probably the most regressive tax in England (the rest of the UK have slightly different rules). The amount of tax depends upon both the local area and the value of the property in 1991. Everyone who's house was work more than £320k in 1991 pays the same rate. This means in Kensington, London someone in a swanky 250 sq.m. £8million house pays £2473 per year...as does someone in a £million apartment on the next street. The person a few streets over in a grotty 20sq.m £300k studio will be paying £962 per year.
  - aurizon 6y ago
    Thanks for the info. The rich are well protected indeed...
hackissimo123 6y ago
> London is easily as expensive, if not moreso than San Francisco. As a Londoner, I find that hard to believe. London is a huge, diverse city with many industries other than tech, and the vast majority of London's population don't make anything close to an SF tech salary. If London was as expensive as SF then I know I wouldn't be able to afford to live here.
- ghaff 6y ago
  One of the things that distorts these discussions is that it's not just SF proper that's expensive for the most part. It's also the South Bay, Marin, and even parts of the East Bay. It's hard to have a decent daily commute from anywhere that's relatively inexpensive. That's not the case with most cities where a 20-40 mile drive (or even a commuter rail) to where the jobs are (which may or may not be in the city proper) can get you into fairly reasonably-priced housing.
  - hackissimo123 6y ago
    London also has excellent public transport. (Some Londoners might disagree, but have they ever travelled? I've never been to any other large city where it was easier to get around by train and bus.) It's very easy to live in London without needing a car, which brings the cost of living down substantially.
    - ljm 6y ago
      London is very well connected in a bunch of ways (bus, tube, ferry, overground, DLR, tram, train, boris bike...) and in the centre is a lot more walkable than you might think, to the point of not really needing any of it in certain areas. The reason we call it shit is because (before COVID) they're pretty much all pushed beyond capacity during the commuting hours, or practically all the time between the main tourist spots. Commuting in London is a truly hellish experience. And that includes the commuter trains that are frequently delayed or cancelled while ticket prices increase above inflation every year. The best thing that happened from covid is skipping the commute and saving the £300 a month it took to get to the office and back.

shagie 6y ago

Tech workers exist outside of Big Tech and well funded SaaS companies. I've worked as a person working on the internal bulletin board, planograms and point of sales devices at a retail company. I've worked writing reports at a small logistics company that specialized in getting auto parts to garages. I'm currently working in the public sector. In none of these have I made six figures. Part of this is locale. Part of it is I'm not seeking out those Big Tech jobs. Part of it is the industries I've been working in. Lumping the public sector in the midwest into "US tech workers" and claiming the entire pool is overpaid is the reality for a small set of industries in (what has been) a few geographic bubbles.

vp8989 6y ago
The article we are commenting on is written from the context of a high COL based tech worker.

6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago

Why say US workers are overpaid instead of saying UK workers are underpaid?

vp8989 6y ago
I said US tech workers are overpaid, not US workers in general. UK tech salaries are a lot closer to other types of office work.