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> Meanwhile someone like me...I'm literally turning away interviews. How do you manage that? I've been a software developer for over 20 years now, and every ti

> Meanwhile someone like me...I'm literally turning away interviews. How do you manage that? I've been a software developer for over 20 years now, and every time I lose my job it's a SLOG to find another one, with anywhere from a few months to a year in between. I can't even remember the last time a recruiter contacted me (perhaps 5-6 times in my entire career). It's not like my technical skills are lacking. I've worked professionally with most popular languages and technologies, have dozens of popular open source projects under my belt, many of which you're probably even using at work in some fashion. I've even been called a "miracle worker" a few times for the projects I've saved from ruin, or terrible processes I've optimized. I'm friendly with everyone, not badmouthing, staying out of politics, treating everyone professionally and expecting the same. But then whenever there are layoffs or there's an opportunity to push someone out, I'm in the first wave to go (they never say why). I've even been fired for "not stepping up enough." And then I spend another few months slinging resumes all over, spending my days doing coding challenges in the hopes of getting an interview. Then another year of employment and the cycle starts all over again. I have to constantly prove myself again and again, as if I were fresh out of college or something.

stocknoob 6y ago
This may be difficult to hear, but something is wrong if you have been working for 20 years and old colleagues aren't occasionally checking in to see if you'd like a different gig at their current company. The people who called you a miracle worker, they don't keep in touch? They don't want you to join their current project? You may want to ask someone who you are on good terms with what's going on.
- throwaway_gerts 6y ago
  I've never had an old colleague contact me. Is that a thing? Forgive me, but I'm not even sure what I should be asking these people... "Why haven't you contacted me" sounds too abrasive...
  - stocknoob 6y ago
    Maybe 10% of my coworkers transitioned from work acquaintance ("Hi Jim") into good work acquaintance ("hey man, grab lunch?") into friend ("hey man, want to grab dinner/beers later?") into good friend ("hey man, want to go on an out-of-country trip?"). If nobody is making the jump into good work acquaintance, where you enjoy hanging out casually without needing an explicit work reason, something is amiss. I don't try to form connections, it just happens similar to how you make friends in class. Work is class. If nobody talks to you after the project is over something isn't right. You can't ask people who aren't close directly why they aren't close, but maybe family members / non-work friends. "Is there something about me that makes it difficult to make connections?" It's quite hard to get explicit feedback on this type of thing.
    - throwaway_gerts 6y ago
      > You can't ask people who aren't close directly why they aren't close, but maybe family members / non-work friends. Yes! I've done exactly this, and the result is always the same: They can't believe that I'm having problems in this area. "I can't understand how ANYONE could dislike you!" is what my dad said. Fuck... now this is making me sad.
      - stocknoob 6y ago
        Ah, don't get sad -- you seem aware enough to recognize the problem. Just a few thoughts: * These connections are easier when you're in your 20s, single, have time to kill. The company culture may encourage/discourage this too. * If you're a developer, you may be among a less-extroverted cohort, and have to make efforts to reach out vs. being reached-out-to. * These are the hard-to-teach-explicitly items, but is every interaction with coworkers purely about the project? Hobbies, shared interests, movies they've seen, games they play, trips they've done/are going to do, etc.? With a (non-work) shared interest it's hard not to have casual conversations that build a work repoire over time. * There are intangible social signals about willingness to connect (person is overly polite/formal/rigid, facial expressions/body language, warmth of tone and language, etc.). Basically when you sit down next to someone on an airplane, you can tell if they want to chat without having to ask them. Being actively disliked is rarely the issue. You don't dislike the cashier at the grocery store, but the relationship is purely transactional, we can be friendly but let's just get this over with. For some reason, your coworkers may see things this way.
- junon 6y ago
  This is insulting and just flat out unrealistic. If you've had this experience, great, but what you're describing is very far from the norm.
  - stocknoob 6y ago
    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/new-survey-reveals-85-all-jobs-filled-via-networking-lou-adler/ https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/new-survey-reveals-85-all-job... Working somewhere for decades and not being in touch with a single colleague is not normal. Imagine hearing "I didn't keep in touch with a single person from my 16 years of primary + university education after school ended."
    - junon 6y ago
      I don't keep in touch with anyone I went to school with, no. I also don't keep in touch with many past colleagues beyond a yearly checkup, if at all. Sorry, but your assumption about how the world works / should work isn't applicable to everyone. Some people don't have the capacity to do so.
      - stocknoob 6y ago
        Some people can't see color either, and unfortunately their life is more difficult because of it. But seeing color is the expected outcome for most, and the world is built with that assumption in mind. If you aren't making connections you are unfortunately at a severe disadvantage. To the extent you're self-aware to realize this, you may be able to correct it. Otherwise, like anything else, you learn to adapt.
        junon 6y ago
        What a ludicrous comparison. Contrasting a physical disability vs. a conscious choice not to engage with colleagues from companies past is a sign of a failing argument. Your tone also comes off as incredibly patronizing, as though you know my life better than I do. Rest assured, not keeping in touch with old contacts has not caused me to miss any opportunities that I would be otherwise interested in.
jacksonkmarley 6y ago
Seems weird to never be contacted by recruiters, are you not using linkedin during your job searches? After my last round of linkedin application spamming I get a steady stream of emails about opportunities even after I stopped looking.
- throwaway_gerts 6y ago
  Yes, when I'm looking for work I turn on the looking-for-work thing on linkedin. I'll get 1 maybe 2 generic pings over the next few months for "fullstack dev" (which I'm not - I do server-side or low level software), but that's about it.
  - jacksonkmarley 6y ago
    I don't want to dunk on you with really obvious suggestions like "you have a bad resume, fix it" type comments, maybe you've already had it looked over, and you're in a non-optimal location or something. Maybe ask a few specific questions on reddit somewhere like r/cscareerquestions.
    - throwaway_gerts 6y ago
      I've been wracking my brain for years over this, and I'm still not any closer to understanding what the problem is. I've had my resume looked at and tweaked over and over. I never send a cover letter without having someone else proofread and offer suggestions. I've lived and worked in many tech-hub places, including San Francisco for 6 years. I just don't know... I think it's got to be socially related, but I have a hard time examining that aspect because I'm autistic. But I always make a concerted effort not to offend people, to make sure everyone gets their say and can contribute. People even say I'm a really nice guy, so then I'm left wondering what exactly "it" is that's tanking me... It always happens the same way: - I get a job and everyone is super friendly. Some inevitable technical hiccups getting set up for the first month, but no big deal. - Everything goes swimmingly for the next 6 months to a year. People seem happy with me, performance reviews are fine, 1-on-1 with the boss is fine. I even make a point of asking if they're unhappy with anything about me, and they say "no, everything's fine". Then one day things go bad (or maybe they've been bad and I didn't see). People start being rude to me, start shutting me out of conversations, start being extra harsh or petty in code reviews etc. In some cases they start name-calling. No higher-ups step in so I try to avoid the people doing this and not antagonize them. Eventually my boss brings me in for the "it's not working out" talk. They can never give me a solid reason why, and often they resort to roundabout firing methods because it's technically illegal otherwise. There's never a warning, never a list of things to improve upon. I spend most of my days at a company wondering when I'll get "the call". The worst one happened on Dec 23rd. So yeah... Probably nothing that anyone on HN could help with, because the feedback mechanism I'm subjected to is so vague. But it's frustrating nonetheless, and even today I have constant stress spikes whenever my boss asks to talk to me for a minute about something, wondering if this is it.
robbomacrae 6y ago
Asking for feedback directly will never work. Instead, try asking a friend (or use a fake account) to ask for a reference about yourself. You can then be as targetted as you like.. "have you considered referring throwaway_gerts before? If yes/no why?" Or "were there any issues working with throwaway_gerts?"
fma 6y ago
Lots of replies and I'd mostly agree. I work for a big company... It's not a FAANG, but it's recognizable world wide. Even though it's not a tech company, I believe the name recognition gives some credibility to recruiters. I'm lucky to have worked at a previous company that had a lot of well connected software engineers and management. It was a mid size company so I was 2 levels from the CTO. They are my connections on LinkedIn so I think that adds credibility. I'm a java developer. Despite the hmm...'hate' for Java on HN, if you go to dice.com and put in various languages...Java is very high ranking. Having years of experience in a technology with a lot of jobs help. Some alluded to keeping in touch with old coworkers. I'd have to strongly agree to that. Strongly. I have your back, you have my back. Right? I hate interviewing. HATE. I've been fortunate in the last several years to have had 4 former colleagues ask if I want to join their team/company. I seriously considered each one, but declined for various reason. At one point, my company was having layoffs. I knew I should have a backup plan in case my name was on the list. But I hate interviewing...all it took was a phone call to an old colleague of mine (he's now a director) and I was given an open job offer. I enjoy where I currently work {enough} that I'll stay for a while longer.

stocknoob 6y ago

This may be difficult to hear, but something is wrong if you have been working for 20 years and old colleagues aren't occasionally checking in to see if you'd like a different gig at their current company. The people who called you a miracle worker, they don't keep in touch? They don't want you to join their current project? You may want to ask someone who you are on good terms with what's going on.

throwaway_gerts 6y ago
I've never had an old colleague contact me. Is that a thing? Forgive me, but I'm not even sure what I should be asking these people... "Why haven't you contacted me" sounds too abrasive...
- stocknoob 6y ago
  Maybe 10% of my coworkers transitioned from work acquaintance ("Hi Jim") into good work acquaintance ("hey man, grab lunch?") into friend ("hey man, want to grab dinner/beers later?") into good friend ("hey man, want to go on an out-of-country trip?"). If nobody is making the jump into good work acquaintance, where you enjoy hanging out casually without needing an explicit work reason, something is amiss. I don't try to form connections, it just happens similar to how you make friends in class. Work is class. If nobody talks to you after the project is over something isn't right. You can't ask people who aren't close directly why they aren't close, but maybe family members / non-work friends. "Is there something about me that makes it difficult to make connections?" It's quite hard to get explicit feedback on this type of thing.
  - throwaway_gerts 6y ago
    > You can't ask people who aren't close directly why they aren't close, but maybe family members / non-work friends. Yes! I've done exactly this, and the result is always the same: They can't believe that I'm having problems in this area. "I can't understand how ANYONE could dislike you!" is what my dad said. Fuck... now this is making me sad.
    - stocknoob 6y ago
      Ah, don't get sad -- you seem aware enough to recognize the problem. Just a few thoughts: * These connections are easier when you're in your 20s, single, have time to kill. The company culture may encourage/discourage this too. * If you're a developer, you may be among a less-extroverted cohort, and have to make efforts to reach out vs. being reached-out-to. * These are the hard-to-teach-explicitly items, but is every interaction with coworkers purely about the project? Hobbies, shared interests, movies they've seen, games they play, trips they've done/are going to do, etc.? With a (non-work) shared interest it's hard not to have casual conversations that build a work repoire over time. * There are intangible social signals about willingness to connect (person is overly polite/formal/rigid, facial expressions/body language, warmth of tone and language, etc.). Basically when you sit down next to someone on an airplane, you can tell if they want to chat without having to ask them. Being actively disliked is rarely the issue. You don't dislike the cashier at the grocery store, but the relationship is purely transactional, we can be friendly but let's just get this over with. For some reason, your coworkers may see things this way.
junon 6y ago
This is insulting and just flat out unrealistic. If you've had this experience, great, but what you're describing is very far from the norm.
- stocknoob 6y ago
  https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/new-survey-reveals-85-all-jobs-filled-via-networking-lou-adler/ https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/new-survey-reveals-85-all-job... Working somewhere for decades and not being in touch with a single colleague is not normal. Imagine hearing "I didn't keep in touch with a single person from my 16 years of primary + university education after school ended."
  - junon 6y ago
    I don't keep in touch with anyone I went to school with, no. I also don't keep in touch with many past colleagues beyond a yearly checkup, if at all. Sorry, but your assumption about how the world works / should work isn't applicable to everyone. Some people don't have the capacity to do so.
    - stocknoob 6y ago
      Some people can't see color either, and unfortunately their life is more difficult because of it. But seeing color is the expected outcome for most, and the world is built with that assumption in mind. If you aren't making connections you are unfortunately at a severe disadvantage. To the extent you're self-aware to realize this, you may be able to correct it. Otherwise, like anything else, you learn to adapt.
      - junon 6y ago
        What a ludicrous comparison. Contrasting a physical disability vs. a conscious choice not to engage with colleagues from companies past is a sign of a failing argument. Your tone also comes off as incredibly patronizing, as though you know my life better than I do. Rest assured, not keeping in touch with old contacts has not caused me to miss any opportunities that I would be otherwise interested in.

jacksonkmarley 6y ago

Seems weird to never be contacted by recruiters, are you not using linkedin during your job searches? After my last round of linkedin application spamming I get a steady stream of emails about opportunities even after I stopped looking.

throwaway_gerts 6y ago
Yes, when I'm looking for work I turn on the looking-for-work thing on linkedin. I'll get 1 maybe 2 generic pings over the next few months for "fullstack dev" (which I'm not - I do server-side or low level software), but that's about it.
- jacksonkmarley 6y ago
  I don't want to dunk on you with really obvious suggestions like "you have a bad resume, fix it" type comments, maybe you've already had it looked over, and you're in a non-optimal location or something. Maybe ask a few specific questions on reddit somewhere like r/cscareerquestions.
  - throwaway_gerts 6y ago
    I've been wracking my brain for years over this, and I'm still not any closer to understanding what the problem is. I've had my resume looked at and tweaked over and over. I never send a cover letter without having someone else proofread and offer suggestions. I've lived and worked in many tech-hub places, including San Francisco for 6 years. I just don't know... I think it's got to be socially related, but I have a hard time examining that aspect because I'm autistic. But I always make a concerted effort not to offend people, to make sure everyone gets their say and can contribute. People even say I'm a really nice guy, so then I'm left wondering what exactly "it" is that's tanking me... It always happens the same way: - I get a job and everyone is super friendly. Some inevitable technical hiccups getting set up for the first month, but no big deal. - Everything goes swimmingly for the next 6 months to a year. People seem happy with me, performance reviews are fine, 1-on-1 with the boss is fine. I even make a point of asking if they're unhappy with anything about me, and they say "no, everything's fine". Then one day things go bad (or maybe they've been bad and I didn't see). People start being rude to me, start shutting me out of conversations, start being extra harsh or petty in code reviews etc. In some cases they start name-calling. No higher-ups step in so I try to avoid the people doing this and not antagonize them. Eventually my boss brings me in for the "it's not working out" talk. They can never give me a solid reason why, and often they resort to roundabout firing methods because it's technically illegal otherwise. There's never a warning, never a list of things to improve upon. I spend most of my days at a company wondering when I'll get "the call". The worst one happened on Dec 23rd. So yeah... Probably nothing that anyone on HN could help with, because the feedback mechanism I'm subjected to is so vague. But it's frustrating nonetheless, and even today I have constant stress spikes whenever my boss asks to talk to me for a minute about something, wondering if this is it.

robbomacrae 6y ago

Asking for feedback directly will never work. Instead, try asking a friend (or use a fake account) to ask for a reference about yourself. You can then be as targetted as you like.. "have you considered referring throwaway_gerts before? If yes/no why?" Or "were there any issues working with throwaway_gerts?"

fma 6y ago

Lots of replies and I'd mostly agree. I work for a big company... It's not a FAANG, but it's recognizable world wide. Even though it's not a tech company, I believe the name recognition gives some credibility to recruiters. I'm lucky to have worked at a previous company that had a lot of well connected software engineers and management. It was a mid size company so I was 2 levels from the CTO. They are my connections on LinkedIn so I think that adds credibility. I'm a java developer. Despite the hmm...'hate' for Java on HN, if you go to dice.com and put in various languages...Java is very high ranking. Having years of experience in a technology with a lot of jobs help. Some alluded to keeping in touch with old coworkers. I'd have to strongly agree to that. Strongly. I have your back, you have my back. Right? I hate interviewing. HATE. I've been fortunate in the last several years to have had 4 former colleagues ask if I want to join their team/company. I seriously considered each one, but declined for various reason. At one point, my company was having layoffs. I knew I should have a backup plan in case my name was on the list. But I hate interviewing...all it took was a phone call to an old colleague of mine (he's now a director) and I was given an open job offer. I enjoy where I currently work {enough} that I'll stay for a while longer.