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> Right, the unstated assumption here being that they are genetically predisposed to having lower cognitive ability (and further that this ability is highly cor

> Right, the unstated assumption here being that they are genetically predisposed to having lower cognitive ability (and further that this ability is highly correlated along racial lines Not even remotely true. The intra-race differences are much larger than the inter-race difference. The difference along racial lines is a fraction of a standard deviation. They almost entirely overlap. Murray emphasized, repeatedly, that the IQ distributions between race almost entirely overlaps. "Highly correlated along racial lines" is the total opposite of what was actually written in the book. I'm sorry but this just about confirms my suspicion that you are not familiar with what Murray actually wrote. I'm sure the version Murray's message you have in your mind is highly racist. But that is a very different message than the one that exists in reality.

joshuamorton 6y ago
The book makes multiple claims in multiple directions, such that you can cite somewhat contradictory statements. I choose to criticize the least measured ones, You choose to ignore them. > I'm sure the version Murray's message you have in your mind is highly racist. But that is a very different message than the one that exists in reality. I haven't yet claimed he's racist. I've claimed he's wrong about measurement of cognitive ability. That said, since you bring it up, I do think he's racist. The book itself isn't about race, per say, it's a Social Darwinist policy-paper aimed at reducing welfare on the argument that welfare for childcare encourages low-income (and, as the book suggests, presumably cognitively-lesser) women to have more children. It also, plainly a succinctly states that immigration is bad, and that modern immigrants are "less able": > The other demographic factor we discussed in Chapter 15 was immigration and the evidence that recent waves of immigrants are, on the average, less successful and probably less able, than earlier waves. This is blamed on the low cognitive ability of modern immigrant populations compared to previous ones, and not structural and systemic factors that make it more difficult for immigrants to be high-achieving. So I find it highly suspicious that the book lays out policy suggestions that will predominantly harm low income black women, and prevent immigration, and that he complains in particular about the harms of nonwhite immigration when he says "Latin and black immigrants are, at least in the short run, putting some downward pressure on the distribution of intelligence.", and then proceeds to suggest that we should reduce immigration from Africa and Latin America to address this. Tell me how that isn't racist. I mean in a sense you're right: whether or not one believes that these policy proposals are based on a genetic or environmental understanding of cognitive heritability isn't really relevant. They're still pretty racist. And they get even more racist when you recognize that there are flaws in how Murray chooses to measure cognitive ability, flaws that systematically favor those with significant exposure to Euro-American culture. Choosing to measure people's athleticism solely on their powerlifting ability, and then proposing to ban anyone who doesn't perform well enough is fairly prejudiced against long distance runners.
- manfredo 6y ago
  Yes, choosing to measure athleticism solely on powerlifting ability is foolish. Did you miss the part where I listed lifting ability and 10k times together? Any good measurement of athleticism would include cardio endurance, too. Likewise, an IQ test that exclusively tests mathematics would be far too narrow. That's why any good IQ test - like the ones used in the studies Murray draws from - test a mix of verbal, visuospatial, and numerical thinking ability. Anyway, this has gone far enough and is going deeper into the reply chain than I think is productive. All I really care about is highlighting several key incorrect claims you've made about Murray's work: > As far as in know, murray claims that the hereditary nature is [primarily] due to genetics, which is certainly more controversial than observing that it is hereditary. No. Murray repeatedly emphasizes the role of environmental factors like schooling and parenting. He does so explicitly, "In any case, you are not going to learn tomorrow that all the cognitive differences between races are 100 percent genetic in origin, because the scientific state of knowledge, unfinished as it is, already gives ample evidence that environment is part of the story." > claiming that it [IQ/cognitive ability] can't be changed and that someone is "inferior", as Murray does, probably isn't going to set them up for success. The book has an entire chapter called "Raising Cognitive Ability". Furthermore, much of the book explores how parenting, education, and other factors affect cognitive ability. This is not at all something Murray is claiming. > Right, the unstated assumption here being that they are genetically predisposed to having lower cognitive ability (and further that this ability is highly correlated along racial lines). Again, this runs entirely contrary to what is written in the book. Even before adjusting for different socio-economic contexts, mostly overlap. And after adjusting for socio-economic factors the differences are much smaller. "Highly correlated along racial lines" is far from the truth. There's definitely valid criticisms to be made. Especially on the influence of IQ on divorce rates, and other observations that go outside of Murray's area of expertise. But please make those criticisms on what was actually written. The reality is that Murray's claims about IQ are not nearly as controversial or inflammatory than people make them out to be. Relating back to my original comment, people criticize Murray more out of perceived implication than about concrete claims.
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    > That's why any good IQ test - like the ones used in the studies Murray draws from - test a mix of verbal, visuospatial, and numerical thinking ability. This is, as I've repeatedly noted, not really true. There's some great criticism of the kinds of IQ tests he uses in the book, in fact, some of them weren't even IQ tests, which makes any conclusions drawn from them about academic achievement really quite silly. If you're asking trigonometry questions (as one test he uses does!), well you aren't testing innate knowledge, but academic progression. See for example https://bolesblogs.com/1998/03/23/a-review-of-the-bell-curve-bad-science-makes-for-bad-conclusions/ https://bolesblogs.com/1998/03/23/a-review-of-the-bell-curve..., which discusses the multitude of both logical and psychological errors in the book's analysis of IQ and intelligence. Murray's response to this type of criticism is wholly unsatisfactory. > No. Murray repeatedly emphasizes the role of environmental factors like schooling and parenting Saying that he claims environmental factors have some effect, does not contradict that he claims that genetic factors are the majority. Those are, in fact, both true statements! It's also a bit self contradictory: if he says that socio-economic factors have an impact on measured IQ, then what's the point of IQ as distinct from socio-economic factors? If improving educational access and such improves the measured values, it clearly isn't any sort of innate measure, and is obviously culturally influenced, which is precisely the point I'm making. I'm glad he agrees with me ;) > The reality is that Murray's claims about IQ are not nearly as controversial or inflammatory than people make them out to be. I agree! They're just scientifically inaccurate. The odious things are the policy suggestions he pushes for based on the bunk science! And when one uses bad science to push racist policies, listeners (rightly) start to wonder if perhaps the science is being done to push the policies, and not vice versa. He starts from the conclusion and works backwards, and does so to justify inequalities that exist today. That is racist. > people criticize Murray more out of perceived implication than about concrete claims. Another way to put what I'm getting at here is that the scientific claims Murray makes are broadly not false, but they are often vague and underspecified. The policy proposals he suggests only make sense under a particular interpretation of his scientific claims, a particular interpretation he never explicitly states. That interpretation isn't supported by his data, and contradicts much of the softening he places in the book. It doesn't make sense to advocate for removal of the social safety net as a "solution" to the problem of low IQ individuals reproducing too much[0] if you believe that IQ can be raised through policy that improves socio-economic outcomes. It is logically inconsistent to both believe that childhood economic status improves IQ, and that we should reduce government assistance to those with the lowest IQs. In fact, you'd want to do the opposite: stabilize them with additional income such that their economic status, and with it, IQ, increases. His policy proposals only make sense if he believes that IQ is primarily genetic and that things like schools and socio-economic environment don't have a significant impact. [0]: Let's ignore the giant question being begged here.

joshuamorton 6y ago

The book makes multiple claims in multiple directions, such that you can cite somewhat contradictory statements. I choose to criticize the least measured ones, You choose to ignore them. > I'm sure the version Murray's message you have in your mind is highly racist. But that is a very different message than the one that exists in reality. I haven't yet claimed he's racist. I've claimed he's wrong about measurement of cognitive ability. That said, since you bring it up, I do think he's racist. The book itself isn't about race, per say, it's a Social Darwinist policy-paper aimed at reducing welfare on the argument that welfare for childcare encourages low-income (and, as the book suggests, presumably cognitively-lesser) women to have more children. It also, plainly a succinctly states that immigration is bad, and that modern immigrants are "less able": > The other demographic factor we discussed in Chapter 15 was immigration and the evidence that recent waves of immigrants are, on the average, less successful and probably less able, than earlier waves. This is blamed on the low cognitive ability of modern immigrant populations compared to previous ones, and not structural and systemic factors that make it more difficult for immigrants to be high-achieving. So I find it highly suspicious that the book lays out policy suggestions that will predominantly harm low income black women, and prevent immigration, and that he complains in particular about the harms of nonwhite immigration when he says "Latin and black immigrants are, at least in the short run, putting some downward pressure on the distribution of intelligence.", and then proceeds to suggest that we should reduce immigration from Africa and Latin America to address this. Tell me how that isn't racist. I mean in a sense you're right: whether or not one believes that these policy proposals are based on a genetic or environmental understanding of cognitive heritability isn't really relevant. They're still pretty racist. And they get even more racist when you recognize that there are flaws in how Murray chooses to measure cognitive ability, flaws that systematically favor those with significant exposure to Euro-American culture. Choosing to measure people's athleticism solely on their powerlifting ability, and then proposing to ban anyone who doesn't perform well enough is fairly prejudiced against long distance runners.

manfredo 6y ago
Yes, choosing to measure athleticism solely on powerlifting ability is foolish. Did you miss the part where I listed lifting ability and 10k times together? Any good measurement of athleticism would include cardio endurance, too. Likewise, an IQ test that exclusively tests mathematics would be far too narrow. That's why any good IQ test - like the ones used in the studies Murray draws from - test a mix of verbal, visuospatial, and numerical thinking ability. Anyway, this has gone far enough and is going deeper into the reply chain than I think is productive. All I really care about is highlighting several key incorrect claims you've made about Murray's work: > As far as in know, murray claims that the hereditary nature is [primarily] due to genetics, which is certainly more controversial than observing that it is hereditary. No. Murray repeatedly emphasizes the role of environmental factors like schooling and parenting. He does so explicitly, "In any case, you are not going to learn tomorrow that all the cognitive differences between races are 100 percent genetic in origin, because the scientific state of knowledge, unfinished as it is, already gives ample evidence that environment is part of the story." > claiming that it [IQ/cognitive ability] can't be changed and that someone is "inferior", as Murray does, probably isn't going to set them up for success. The book has an entire chapter called "Raising Cognitive Ability". Furthermore, much of the book explores how parenting, education, and other factors affect cognitive ability. This is not at all something Murray is claiming. > Right, the unstated assumption here being that they are genetically predisposed to having lower cognitive ability (and further that this ability is highly correlated along racial lines). Again, this runs entirely contrary to what is written in the book. Even before adjusting for different socio-economic contexts, mostly overlap. And after adjusting for socio-economic factors the differences are much smaller. "Highly correlated along racial lines" is far from the truth. There's definitely valid criticisms to be made. Especially on the influence of IQ on divorce rates, and other observations that go outside of Murray's area of expertise. But please make those criticisms on what was actually written. The reality is that Murray's claims about IQ are not nearly as controversial or inflammatory than people make them out to be. Relating back to my original comment, people criticize Murray more out of perceived implication than about concrete claims.
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  > That's why any good IQ test - like the ones used in the studies Murray draws from - test a mix of verbal, visuospatial, and numerical thinking ability. This is, as I've repeatedly noted, not really true. There's some great criticism of the kinds of IQ tests he uses in the book, in fact, some of them weren't even IQ tests, which makes any conclusions drawn from them about academic achievement really quite silly. If you're asking trigonometry questions (as one test he uses does!), well you aren't testing innate knowledge, but academic progression. See for example https://bolesblogs.com/1998/03/23/a-review-of-the-bell-curve-bad-science-makes-for-bad-conclusions/ https://bolesblogs.com/1998/03/23/a-review-of-the-bell-curve..., which discusses the multitude of both logical and psychological errors in the book's analysis of IQ and intelligence. Murray's response to this type of criticism is wholly unsatisfactory. > No. Murray repeatedly emphasizes the role of environmental factors like schooling and parenting Saying that he claims environmental factors have some effect, does not contradict that he claims that genetic factors are the majority. Those are, in fact, both true statements! It's also a bit self contradictory: if he says that socio-economic factors have an impact on measured IQ, then what's the point of IQ as distinct from socio-economic factors? If improving educational access and such improves the measured values, it clearly isn't any sort of innate measure, and is obviously culturally influenced, which is precisely the point I'm making. I'm glad he agrees with me ;) > The reality is that Murray's claims about IQ are not nearly as controversial or inflammatory than people make them out to be. I agree! They're just scientifically inaccurate. The odious things are the policy suggestions he pushes for based on the bunk science! And when one uses bad science to push racist policies, listeners (rightly) start to wonder if perhaps the science is being done to push the policies, and not vice versa. He starts from the conclusion and works backwards, and does so to justify inequalities that exist today. That is racist. > people criticize Murray more out of perceived implication than about concrete claims. Another way to put what I'm getting at here is that the scientific claims Murray makes are broadly not false, but they are often vague and underspecified. The policy proposals he suggests only make sense under a particular interpretation of his scientific claims, a particular interpretation he never explicitly states. That interpretation isn't supported by his data, and contradicts much of the softening he places in the book. It doesn't make sense to advocate for removal of the social safety net as a "solution" to the problem of low IQ individuals reproducing too much[0] if you believe that IQ can be raised through policy that improves socio-economic outcomes. It is logically inconsistent to both believe that childhood economic status improves IQ, and that we should reduce government assistance to those with the lowest IQs. In fact, you'd want to do the opposite: stabilize them with additional income such that their economic status, and with it, IQ, increases. His policy proposals only make sense if he believes that IQ is primarily genetic and that things like schools and socio-economic environment don't have a significant impact. [0]: Let's ignore the giant question being begged here.