6 ms·

What could Facebook possibly do that would harm Apple more than it would harm Facebook?

Nextgrid 6y ago
I guess they could release a Facebook phone and an entire new mobile platform? I think they have both the hardware/software engineering capability to do it (see Oculus), plenty of scummy companies that are happy to jump on the bandwagon and release their apps for it as well as a userbase which will swallow it right away (they could be sold very cheaply and subsidized by the collected data)?
- mig39 6y ago
  Did they try that already? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_First https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_First https://www.cnet.com/news/heres-why-the-facebook-phone-flopped/ https://www.cnet.com/news/heres-why-the-facebook-phone-flopp...
  - bdcravens 6y ago
    Worth noting that Apple partnered on a phone before the iPhone, and it also flopped. https://www.gsmarena.com/flashback_the_motorola_rokr_e1_was_a_dud_but_it_paved_the_way_for_the_iphone-news-38934.php https://www.gsmarena.com/flashback_the_motorola_rokr_e1_was_...
- actuator 6y ago
  I don't think FB should do hardware honestly. Hardware requires a lot of patience and integration as Microsoft and Google discovered with their phones. Adding to this, FB's image is such at this point that most people won't touch their hardware. FB has a lot of engineering talent and experience on distributed operations and services side, so if they really want to diversify, perhaps should leverage that.
- adambyrtek 6y ago
  I think Microsoft has already demonstrated that launching a successful new mobile platform is extremely difficult (if not impossible) at this point regardless of resources and hardware capabilities.
  - Nextgrid 6y ago
    Microsoft had no leverage and developers weren't onboard because they had no incentives to do so. Facebook has leverage - if their future on iOS (and maybe even Android at some point) is at risk, they could very well release a Facebook phone and offer incentives to their users to move. Developers would also be onboard if Facebook offers incentives to them. Despite all the bad reputation Facebook gets on the surface, most tech companies happily use and depend on Facebook for their marketing & advertising efforts, so they'd be more likely to embrace the Facebook ecosystem if iOS is interfering with their marketing ability.
  - tomjen3 6y ago
    Add one or two interesting hardware twists, be compatible 100% with Android and aggressively get apps on the platform (pay developers to upload). Oh and be the hero by charging very little for the appstore (5% maybe).
- chihuahua 6y ago
  At best, this would take some market share from the low-end of Android phones. Apple's market is at the high end, so I doubt Apple would even notice it.
  - Nextgrid 6y ago
    A significant chunk of iOS's marketshare is people buying iPhones because they are "cool" as opposed to any technical reasons. If Facebook makes their phone seem more "cool" through marketing, that chunk of customers will happily switch.
    - topranks 6y ago
      Facebook is seriously “uncool”. They’ve very little chance to make their phone cool. Maybe if they use the Instagram brand.
      - Nextgrid 6y ago
        Instagram is cool and all the "cool" kids still flock to it (though TikTok is significantly gaining popularity). Whatsapp is a Facebook brand and yet doesn't raise any red flags with most people so that's another brand they could use.
- quickthrowman 6y ago
  They aren’t going to compete with Apple or harm them by selling a phone subsidized by selling data, they’ll take market share from low tier Android phone makers. Microsoft didn’t have any luck, why would Facebook?
- emilsedgh 6y ago
  If Facebook was in a position to do it, they would've already done it for more profit.
  - Nextgrid 6y ago
    Up until now, Facebook made more money with the status quo rather than risking a huge amount of money on a hardware bet. However, the tables have turned to the point where Facebook's future on iOS appears to be in jeopardy, so a hardware bet might make more sense - as in they might not have a choice if they want to keep growing and maintain/increase their valuation.
- rndgermandude 6y ago
  Facebook would have to sell a lot of units, in a field with which they are mostly unfamiliar, and where they'd have very strong competitors in Apple and Facebook (and all the companies who invested in and sell Android, like Samsung). I do not see Facebook playing catch up with Google, Samsung, the Chinese and Apple in OS, services (like maps) and hardware development, as it is too expensive to get FB into a competitive state in regards to tech, even if they forked AOSP instead of starting from scratch. A mere Facebook branded AOSP will not cut it (and then they'd still need to develop services on top, because people want more than just a facebook App, and app developers want more than just a generic AOSP + FB API)... Then they'd have to solve the supply chain to get production rolling. And then they would have to convince people to use their product, which is the toughest problem they'd have to overcome. Their reputation simply isn't great. Any subsidies can only be limited. How much money could they reasonably offer a FB phone user (in exchange for their data) after having burned through billions in development, production development and marketing? Something like 50 bucks at most I'd think, if they want to still stay profitable. That's not yet a "convincer". Apple users do not mind paying a premium already, and in the Android world you already have lots of products at all prices. And let's not forget that phones (other than Apple phones) are relatively low margin. Microsoft tried and failed to enter that market, already. And MS reputation with consumers compared to FB was a LOT better. It's not impossible, but it would be a moonshot, and a moonshot that would be betting the company's well-being. Entering the smartphone market is a lot harder than creating a new market like they try with Oculus, or Tesla did with electric cars[1]. And Zuckerberg isn't exactly an Elon Musk either[1] when it comes to public perception, or a Cook or Jobs or Brin or Page or even Bezos or still-at-MS Gates. [1] The market was essentially non-existent and the few products that you could get were all rather subpar. Tesla essentially still had a first mover advantage, and supported their R&D with a limited premium car production with high margins, convincing investors to throw money at them and massive debt. [2] Tho I have heard Zuckerberg described as a Martian, something that Musk aspired to be :P
- why_Mr_Anderson 6y ago
  Google pretty much destroyed any possibility of anothe competitor entering the mobile OS market (I always thought that dumping was illegal and you can't go much lower than 0).
benjohnson 6y ago
If they can help (politically) break the app store monopoly on iPhones they could introduce a new version of their app that has all the tracking they want.
- Vespasian 6y ago
  If they manage to do that (for all platforms not Just Apple) I'd be willing to give them some positive karma. Probably not nearly enough to cancel out the rest of their behaviour but at least some. "The enemy of my enemy..."
  - gruturo 6y ago
    > "The enemy of my enemy..." Is still very much my enemy, and I'd be a fool to let my guard down.
ogre_codes 6y ago
Something like this -> https://www.theinformation.com/articles/facebook-plans-smartwatch-with-focus-on-messaging-health https://www.theinformation.com/articles/facebook-plans-smart... Facebook plans a smartwatch with deep ties to Facebook to compete with the iPhone. Talk about a hard nope for me.
- smilespray 6y ago
  Absolutely nothing could ever possibly go wrong with streaming your real-time heart rate and blood pressure to Facebook while you're scrolling through your feed.
  - willxinc 6y ago
    Unless it's hidden under the paywall fold, I don't see the article mentioning that's what's planned?
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      I didn't see a lot either. I just assume it's a direct feed of all your bodily activity direct to Zuck Central. Supported by real time advertising direct to your brain.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- oe 6y ago
  Is there a target audience for Facebook hardware products? I guess HN crowd isn't but I'd want to know what part of the population could be. Curious.
  - akmarinov 6y ago
    Do we count the Oculus stuff?
  - Tagbert 6y ago
    i would guess that they would be sold as loss leaders. If Facebook can get more customer metrics and give Apple a black eye, I’m sure that they would be willing to sell a watch at cost.
chiefalchemist 6y ago
Given FB's power to influence, they could "promote" Apple bad news more, and demote Apple good news (e.g., it's pro-privacy efforts). Then at the same time, do the opposite for Android. It might not be severe pain, but we should not underestimate FB power as it controls our individual feeds.
zpeti 6y ago
They need to spend billions suing Apple for every single possible antitrust and anticompetitive lawsuit they can. They need to fund spotify's case against apple music and how ridiculously unfair it is. In fact, why don't they release their own version of spotify for the sole reason to prove how anticompetitive apple is with pricing. If someone has the financial resources to do that, and the actual shareholder interest, it's Facebook.
- dralley 6y ago
  They could just buy Spotify. *Pending FTC approval, which is questionable.
- why_Mr_Anderson 6y ago
  Ehh, Spotify should stay quiet and off-radar and hope that more people won't learn about the ridiculous level of tracking they do in their desktop app.
  - perceptronas 6y ago
    Is there anything beyond this list here https://support.spotify.com/us/article/understanding-my-data/ https://support.spotify.com/us/article/understanding-my-data... ?
    - why_Mr_Anderson 6y ago
      Yeah, a bit more? https://twitter.com/steipete/status/1025024813889478656 https://twitter.com/steipete/status/1025024813889478656
indymike 6y ago
At this point, Facebook really is in a jam because their value to Apple and Google was getting users to buy a smartphone. A lot of people's personal use case for their first smartphone was using Facebook, Messenger and Instagram. Now, everyone has a smartphone... and will continue using them because there are other ways to do what you do with Facebook, Messenger and Instagram.

I guess they could release a Facebook phone and an entire new mobile platform? I think they have both the hardware/software engineering capability to do it (see Oculus), plenty of scummy companies that are happy to jump on the bandwagon and release their apps for it as well as a userbase which will swallow it right away (they could be sold very cheaply and subsidized by the collected data)?

mig39 6y ago
Did they try that already? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_First https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_First https://www.cnet.com/news/heres-why-the-facebook-phone-flopped/ https://www.cnet.com/news/heres-why-the-facebook-phone-flopp...
- bdcravens 6y ago
  Worth noting that Apple partnered on a phone before the iPhone, and it also flopped. https://www.gsmarena.com/flashback_the_motorola_rokr_e1_was_a_dud_but_it_paved_the_way_for_the_iphone-news-38934.php https://www.gsmarena.com/flashback_the_motorola_rokr_e1_was_...
actuator 6y ago
I don't think FB should do hardware honestly. Hardware requires a lot of patience and integration as Microsoft and Google discovered with their phones. Adding to this, FB's image is such at this point that most people won't touch their hardware. FB has a lot of engineering talent and experience on distributed operations and services side, so if they really want to diversify, perhaps should leverage that.
adambyrtek 6y ago
I think Microsoft has already demonstrated that launching a successful new mobile platform is extremely difficult (if not impossible) at this point regardless of resources and hardware capabilities.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  Microsoft had no leverage and developers weren't onboard because they had no incentives to do so. Facebook has leverage - if their future on iOS (and maybe even Android at some point) is at risk, they could very well release a Facebook phone and offer incentives to their users to move. Developers would also be onboard if Facebook offers incentives to them. Despite all the bad reputation Facebook gets on the surface, most tech companies happily use and depend on Facebook for their marketing & advertising efforts, so they'd be more likely to embrace the Facebook ecosystem if iOS is interfering with their marketing ability.
- tomjen3 6y ago
  Add one or two interesting hardware twists, be compatible 100% with Android and aggressively get apps on the platform (pay developers to upload). Oh and be the hero by charging very little for the appstore (5% maybe).
chihuahua 6y ago
At best, this would take some market share from the low-end of Android phones. Apple's market is at the high end, so I doubt Apple would even notice it.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  A significant chunk of iOS's marketshare is people buying iPhones because they are "cool" as opposed to any technical reasons. If Facebook makes their phone seem more "cool" through marketing, that chunk of customers will happily switch.
  - topranks 6y ago
    Facebook is seriously “uncool”. They’ve very little chance to make their phone cool. Maybe if they use the Instagram brand.
    - Nextgrid 6y ago
      Instagram is cool and all the "cool" kids still flock to it (though TikTok is significantly gaining popularity). Whatsapp is a Facebook brand and yet doesn't raise any red flags with most people so that's another brand they could use.
quickthrowman 6y ago
They aren’t going to compete with Apple or harm them by selling a phone subsidized by selling data, they’ll take market share from low tier Android phone makers. Microsoft didn’t have any luck, why would Facebook?
emilsedgh 6y ago
If Facebook was in a position to do it, they would've already done it for more profit.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  Up until now, Facebook made more money with the status quo rather than risking a huge amount of money on a hardware bet. However, the tables have turned to the point where Facebook's future on iOS appears to be in jeopardy, so a hardware bet might make more sense - as in they might not have a choice if they want to keep growing and maintain/increase their valuation.
rndgermandude 6y ago
Facebook would have to sell a lot of units, in a field with which they are mostly unfamiliar, and where they'd have very strong competitors in Apple and Facebook (and all the companies who invested in and sell Android, like Samsung). I do not see Facebook playing catch up with Google, Samsung, the Chinese and Apple in OS, services (like maps) and hardware development, as it is too expensive to get FB into a competitive state in regards to tech, even if they forked AOSP instead of starting from scratch. A mere Facebook branded AOSP will not cut it (and then they'd still need to develop services on top, because people want more than just a facebook App, and app developers want more than just a generic AOSP + FB API)... Then they'd have to solve the supply chain to get production rolling. And then they would have to convince people to use their product, which is the toughest problem they'd have to overcome. Their reputation simply isn't great. Any subsidies can only be limited. How much money could they reasonably offer a FB phone user (in exchange for their data) after having burned through billions in development, production development and marketing? Something like 50 bucks at most I'd think, if they want to still stay profitable. That's not yet a "convincer". Apple users do not mind paying a premium already, and in the Android world you already have lots of products at all prices. And let's not forget that phones (other than Apple phones) are relatively low margin. Microsoft tried and failed to enter that market, already. And MS reputation with consumers compared to FB was a LOT better. It's not impossible, but it would be a moonshot, and a moonshot that would be betting the company's well-being. Entering the smartphone market is a lot harder than creating a new market like they try with Oculus, or Tesla did with electric cars[1]. And Zuckerberg isn't exactly an Elon Musk either[1] when it comes to public perception, or a Cook or Jobs or Brin or Page or even Bezos or still-at-MS Gates. [1] The market was essentially non-existent and the few products that you could get were all rather subpar. Tesla essentially still had a first mover advantage, and supported their R&D with a limited premium car production with high margins, convincing investors to throw money at them and massive debt. [2] Tho I have heard Zuckerberg described as a Martian, something that Musk aspired to be :P
why_Mr_Anderson 6y ago
Google pretty much destroyed any possibility of anothe competitor entering the mobile OS market (I always thought that dumping was illegal and you can't go much lower than 0).

benjohnson 6y ago

If they can help (politically) break the app store monopoly on iPhones they could introduce a new version of their app that has all the tracking they want.

Vespasian 6y ago
If they manage to do that (for all platforms not Just Apple) I'd be willing to give them some positive karma. Probably not nearly enough to cancel out the rest of their behaviour but at least some. "The enemy of my enemy..."
- gruturo 6y ago
  > "The enemy of my enemy..." Is still very much my enemy, and I'd be a fool to let my guard down.

ogre_codes 6y ago

Something like this -> https://www.theinformation.com/articles/facebook-plans-smartwatch-with-focus-on-messaging-health https://www.theinformation.com/articles/facebook-plans-smart... Facebook plans a smartwatch with deep ties to Facebook to compete with the iPhone. Talk about a hard nope for me.

smilespray 6y ago
Absolutely nothing could ever possibly go wrong with streaming your real-time heart rate and blood pressure to Facebook while you're scrolling through your feed.
- willxinc 6y ago
  Unless it's hidden under the paywall fold, I don't see the article mentioning that's what's planned?
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    I didn't see a lot either. I just assume it's a direct feed of all your bodily activity direct to Zuck Central. Supported by real time advertising direct to your brain.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
oe 6y ago
Is there a target audience for Facebook hardware products? I guess HN crowd isn't but I'd want to know what part of the population could be. Curious.
- akmarinov 6y ago
  Do we count the Oculus stuff?
- Tagbert 6y ago
  i would guess that they would be sold as loss leaders. If Facebook can get more customer metrics and give Apple a black eye, I’m sure that they would be willing to sell a watch at cost.

chiefalchemist 6y ago

Given FB's power to influence, they could "promote" Apple bad news more, and demote Apple good news (e.g., it's pro-privacy efforts). Then at the same time, do the opposite for Android. It might not be severe pain, but we should not underestimate FB power as it controls our individual feeds.

zpeti 6y ago

They need to spend billions suing Apple for every single possible antitrust and anticompetitive lawsuit they can. They need to fund spotify's case against apple music and how ridiculously unfair it is. In fact, why don't they release their own version of spotify for the sole reason to prove how anticompetitive apple is with pricing. If someone has the financial resources to do that, and the actual shareholder interest, it's Facebook.

dralley 6y ago
They could just buy Spotify. *Pending FTC approval, which is questionable.
why_Mr_Anderson 6y ago
Ehh, Spotify should stay quiet and off-radar and hope that more people won't learn about the ridiculous level of tracking they do in their desktop app.
- perceptronas 6y ago
  Is there anything beyond this list here https://support.spotify.com/us/article/understanding-my-data/ https://support.spotify.com/us/article/understanding-my-data... ?
  - why_Mr_Anderson 6y ago
    Yeah, a bit more? https://twitter.com/steipete/status/1025024813889478656 https://twitter.com/steipete/status/1025024813889478656

indymike 6y ago

At this point, Facebook really is in a jam because their value to Apple and Google was getting users to buy a smartphone. A lot of people's personal use case for their first smartphone was using Facebook, Messenger and Instagram. Now, everyone has a smartphone... and will continue using them because there are other ways to do what you do with Facebook, Messenger and Instagram.